Official responses to 1 min/level Buff spells

[JLXC]

Yeah I'm a D&D nut sometimes, happy to have had the last question on the 3.5 chat which ended like 2 minutes ago. Here it is.

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wizo_negathael presents the speaker with question #232 from jlxc2:
It seems many people are worried that the hour long "buff" spells, such as Bull's Strength, will be too weak at one minute per level. Can you give us any feedback on that?
wotc_andy says, "I think they were way too overused at 1 hr/level, to the point where they crowded out not only other 2nd-level spells, but also the stat-boosting items."
wotc_andy says, "When we see no-brainers like that, we tend to target them, because a lack of interesting choices is bad for the game."
wotc_ed says, "We've been finding in our playtests that a lot of casters initially stopped using those spells, but then they started working their way in. It became the hallmark of a climactic encounter that the ..."
wotc_andy says, "As a DM, I was tired of the players taking a half-hour before every dungeon to argue over who got what stat-boosters..."
wotc_andy says, "...and with 3 more of them being added, the problem was only going to get worse."
wotc_andy says, "If people want long-term stat boosting, we want them to shell out gp to buy the items rather than arm-twisting the sorcerer or cleric into using up all his spells."
wotc_ed says, "spellcaster will buff as many party members as could benefit and then the game really rocked for that one encounter. It made the climactic encounter feel that much more special, since people got a boost then and not for the entire scenario ..."
wotc_andy says, "And if high-level characters stop relying on these spells, that's FINE--they're only 2nd level, after all."
wotc_ed says, "Oh, one more thing about that. It also took care of the other thing we found in playtesting; everyone walks into the room buffed, the not-an-idiot-enemy-spellcaster would then throw dispel magic. Nearly all the buffs went away. Now the DM doesn't feel his actions proscribed anymore, either. ga from Ed"
wotc_andy says, "Good final question--it points to a significant issue that comes up again and again in design: Is this new element so good that it..."
wotc_andy says, "...becomes the best one in its category, crowding all others out? If so, it's probably too good. (Same issue for haste--it made Quicken Spell uninteresting.) ga"

 

[Petrosian]

i find it interesting to ross reference this

"If people want long-term stat boosting, we want them to shell out gp to buy the items rather than arm-twisting the sorcerer or cleric into using up all his spells."

with...

the comment in the first dragon article in dragon about 3.5 where they took pains to emphasize how they wanted 3.5 to be options and that they decided it was not good for them to tell us how to play dnd and so forth as in changing the game to be what we like.

its bizarre to me to see commentary on the old way limitng the options and proscribing action choices when the solution is to make there be their preferred only one way to get long term buffs.

with 3.0 there was a choice... a choice between buying items that would cost money aor saving money but tapping into the casters spells and being more at risk from a dispel.

it seems in 3.5 the preference is to only have the one option, buying items, as a choice.

 

[dcollins]

My current theory: 3.5 Edition is basically all of Andy Collins' personal house rules.

wotc_andy says, "As a DM, I was tired of the players taking a half-hour before every dungeon to argue over who got what stat-boosters..."

This is also greatly at odds with the promotions touting 3.5 Edition as largely collecting lessons and concerns expressed by the player community -- four-fifths of these changes I've never heard anyone complain about. Furthermore, the "full compatibility" claim doesn't wash in the face of more spell changes than any ruleset since AD&D 1st Edition.

 

[Hypersmurf]

the comment in the first dragon article in dragon about 3.5 where they took pains to emphasize how they wanted 3.5 to be options and that they decided it was not good for them to tell us how to play dnd and so forth as in changing the game to be what we like.

Wasn't one of the other design philosophies of 3.5 to prevent magic items overshadowing class abilities?

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

in the first dragon article in dragon about 3.5 where they took pains to emphasize how they wanted 3.5 to be options and that they decided it was not good for them to tell us how to play dnd and so forth as in changing the game to be what we like.

Taking the buff spells became a no-brainer. That was the lack of choice. The playtest group felt that these were always the spells to take. Which meant that dispel would always fly. That is a stagnant situation they wanted to change.

Now, if only they would address the "Magic Missle problem"

 

[Numion]

I've seen in my games what andy said too well. In this regard 3.5e is the better game. Yay WotC!

 

[Destil]

Now, if only they would address the "Magic Missle problem"

If memory serves Ed Stark mentioned MM in his mortality.net radio interview. Basicly a reflex save version was playtested, the playtesters found it more balanced and hated it. So it was left as is. Makes sense to me... though I'd rather see an attack roll anyway, we need more spells that count as energy missles...

 

[Kraedin]

My current theory: 3.5 Edition is basically all of Andy Collins' personal house rules.

I tend to agree with that. It's actually the reason I decided not to purchase the new editions -- I have 13 pages of my personal house rules, which fit my game better than his will.

 

[Technik4]

Re 3.5 = Andy Collins House Rules:

I think thats a cheap shot. Andy is a game designer and likely has many more than 16 pages of optional rules he has written for d&d. For a simple example, look at the new metamagic system he designed, is it in 3.5? No.

They are trying to make a system that is less clunky for newbies, backwards compatible for oldies, more streamlined for nitpickers, more balanced for munchkins, and if possible, more fun for everyone. Thats a tall order, personally I'm impressed so far.

Re Buffs:

Furthermore it is ludicrous to say that there is less choice for buffing the party than there used to be. I used to look at 1-shot items like bull's strength potion as useless. After all, if I didnt have the permanent item I could surely get a spellcaster to cast it on me. Not anymore. I think there will be an initial period of little interest towards the buff spells, followed by people choosing them again.

And all those spell casters that memorized 6+ buffs have more options in picking what their repotoire will be like Plus as was stated it won't have to be an automatic no-brainer for a bbeg to cast dispel magic (via himself or one of his cronies) on round 1. Still may be a tactical decision, but he isn't penalized by facing a party of inflated stat-PCs.

1 min/level is good for 1 climactic encounter early on, and later on could last through 2-3 encounters in a thick area. Still a good tactical choice, especially since it is +4 guarantee (I hated rolling a 1 for my buffs for the day).

Technik

 

[JLXC]

Maybe it was just running the RtToEE but the stat thing was a real problem. There really was much talking and even arguing about who was "buffing" who and why didn't the spellcasters just use all their spells to buff up everyone, and then as soon as the buff spells wore off they made sure to be out of the area. At one point the average number of spells on the party was 11 and the max 17! Including "Empowered Bull's Str and Double Empowered Bull's Strength and Extended Bull's Strength" and so on.

Spells on every member of the party should not be a requirement 24/7. I dunno, but knowing my players were the MOST upset about the buff spells over anything else in 3.5 is enough to show me what a problem there really was with them. That and every morning my party would cast buff spells out of every hole, using fully 1/3 their spells or more every day and feeling like they should never even try adventuring unless those spells were in place.

If I ever attacked them without the buff spells running I was "trying to kill them." Yep, buff spells were just silly for 2nd level as is.