OGC equivalent to Thri-kreen? Green martians!

[VelvetViolet]

The thri-kreen are an WotC PI that appeared in the psionics handbook, and have a noticeable fan following. Unfortunately, they can't be used in Pathfinder because of their PI status. However, the stand-in that could be used in Pathfinder is a no-brainer: the green martians from A Princess of Mars, a book which is public domain in the USA. Sure, they aren't "mantis warriors," but they're green four-armed barbarians. What's not to like?


Image by TheBrave

Green men are intelligent but savage four-armed humanoids that roam the deserts, plains and salt flats. They are feared by the other people of the region, especially in numbers.

A green man is built much like a human from the legs up, except that sprouting from the shoulders is a second torso and pair of arms, all topped with an inhuman head. A green man's blue eyes are mounted on the side of his head, and the ears are small cuy-shaped organs on stalks mounted at the top of the head. A pair of curving tusks grow from the lower jaw to about the location of where the eyes would be on a human. Green men have rich olive-green skin all over their bodies, and average around nine feet tall when standing fully upright. The green men do not wear armor, preferring a light leather harness girded with metal clips, buckles, and rings, allowing them to easily attach weapons, ropes, or other tools to themselves.

Green men ride an aggressive breed of thoats and use longspears or Huge longspears when mounted. They use heavy crossbows at long ranges when charging toward enemies. When on foot, they wield two longswords (and some green men are known to wield three or four weapons, although this is uncommon). Many carry short swords, daggers, and light crossbows in addition to their other weapons.

The green man are nomads, wandering across the deserts, plains and salt flats. The males are responsible for hunting and warcraft, the females for raising the young and maintaining the equipment of the males. These racial roles have existed by custom for thousands of years, but in times of need the women have been known to take up arms to defend themselves. The green men are divided into many warring tribes, constantly fighting each other and any other races of men that enter their homelands.

The green men are egg-layers, placing their eggs in secret incubators on the barren landscape. The eggs are left to mature for five years, growing from fist-sized ovoids to something capable of holding a five-year-old human child. The green men keep track of the hatching schedule and know when to return to pick up their newly-hatched young, which are assigned to females for training regardless of parentage. After a few years, the young grow to their full height and maturity and take their place among green man society.

--Sean K Reynolds (src)

Green Man Characters

Type Humanoid (giant) 0 RP
Size Large 7 RP
Base Speed Normal Speed 0 RP
Ability Score Modifiers Specialized (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha) 1 RP
Languages Standard 0 RP

Racial Traits

Ability Score Racial Traits
Advanced Strength (+2) 4 RP

Defense Racial Traits
Desert Runner 2 RP
Natural Armor (+1) 2 RP
Improved Natural Armor (+1) 1 RP

Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Static Bonus Feat (Multiweapon Fighting) 2 RP

Movement Racial Traits
Quadrupedal Movement (see below) 1 RP

Other Racial Traits
Limited Telepathy 3 RP
Multi-Armed (4 arms) 8 RP

Offense Racial Traits
Natural Attack (gore) 1 RP
Reach 1 RP

Senses Racial Traits
Low-light vision 1 RP

Total 30 RP

New Racial Traits
Limited Telepathy (3 RP): A green man is able to mentally communicate with any creature within 30 feet with whom she shares a language. Otherwise this ability is identical to the telepathy ability.
Quadrupedal Movement (1 RP): Green men can use their middle set of limbs as arms or legs. When quadrupedal, his speed increases by +10 feet but his reach is reduced to 5 feet. He must have nothing in his hands to use quadrupedal movement.

Thoats (src)

Thoat, Lesser
About the size of a human horse, this creature has eight legs with yellowish elephant-like feet, a long neck, hairless grey hide, and a wide, flat tail. Some desert and plains tribes breed lesser thoats as mounts, and sometimes employ them as beasts of burden. (Use the statistics for a heavy horse)

Thoat, Greater
The greater thoat resembles its lesser cousin in form, but stands ten feet high at the shoulder. In temperament, it's more vicious and unruly. Green Men ride greater thoats in battle. (Use the statistics for a heavy warhorse with the dire creature template applied)

 

[Cleon]

The thri-kreen are an WotC PI that appeared in the psionics handbook, and have a noticeable fan following. Unfortunately, they can't be used in Pathfinder because of their PI status. However, the stand-in that could be used in Pathfinder is a no-brainer: the green martians from A Princess of Mars, a book which is public domain in the USA. Sure, they aren't "mantis warriors," but they're green four-armed barbarians. What's not to like?

I'd better warn you that I believe Burroughs' estate still have a stranglehold on his IP - it's the main reason there's no "Barsoom the RPG" out there.

Using Green Martians is likely on as shaky a legal footing as using Thri-Kreen, so you might be safer reskinning and renaming them if you want to publish them.

As for the stats, they look pretty good.

It might be worth considering cutting out a few of the racial traits to lower the RP cost.

The Green Martians in the books weren't noticeably stronger than John Carter so I'd consider cutting the Advanced Strength.

They were also pretty fragile - Carter once killed one with one punch - so you could cut the natural armor and Con and maybe lower the HD.

Although they have impressive tusks, did they ever use them in combat? I don't recall a Green Martian ever trying to stab anyone with them, so maybe they're just for display? If so, you can cut the Gore attack.

The Limited Telepathy is sort-of-fitting the original creature, but I don't think they really need it. You could cut that and save 3 RPs.

Finally, I'd seriously consider breaking from the original height and making them Medium sized instead of Large. I know they were twice human height in the books, but this never seemed to actually have any impact on their interactions with human-sized characters.

 

[VelvetViolet]

I'd better warn you that I believe Burroughs' estate still have a stranglehold on his IP - it's the main reason there's no "Barsoom the RPG" out there.

Using Green Martians is likely on as shaky a legal footing as using Thri-Kreen, so you might be safer reskinning and renaming them if you want to publish them.

There are already two d20 Barsoom games: Mars d20 and Shadows of a Dying World. The first five Barsoom novels are public domain, so the Burroughs estate cannot sue people who reference only those books (books six and beyond are still copyrighted, however).

The Green Martians in the books weren't noticeably stronger than John Carter so I'd consider cutting the Advanced Strength.

They were also pretty fragile - Carter once killed one with one punch - so you could cut the natural armor and Con and maybe lower the HD.

Earth has a higher gravity than Mars, so Carter was actually stronger than the natives of Barsoom, not the other way around. Green martians are much stronger than Red martians, which are the human baseline on Barsoom. The statistics are written for Green men adapted to Earth-norm gravity (the standard gravity for fantasy planets). The racial HD are just for ready-made NPCs, PCs would advance in a character class instead.

Using Green Martians as a replacement for Thri-kreen is just a suggestion, though. The ARG already includes the Kasatha as the "four-armed desert nomad" (and I think the Trox are meant to replace Umber Hulks too). Unfortunately I haven't seen any other supplements that make use of them or any of the other new OGC races in the ARG.

 

[Cleon]

There are already two d20 Barsoom games: Mars d20 and Shadows of a Dying World. The first five Barsoom novels are public domain, so the Burroughs estate cannot sue people who reference only those books (books six and beyond are still copyrighted, however).

From what I remember of it the Mars d20 isn't a "official" Barsoom Game since the Burroughs' estates lawyers wouldn't let them use their IP, so they had to file off some of the serial numbers. Hadn't heard of the second of those two though.

Earth has a higher gravity than Mars, so Carter was actually stronger than the natives of Barsoom, not the other way around. Green martians are much stronger than Red martians, which are the human baseline on Barsoom. The statistics are written for Green men adapted to Earth-norm gravity (the standard gravity for fantasy planets). The racial HD are just for ready-made NPCs, PCs would advance in a character class instead.

I'm aware of Carter's "super-strength" relative to the Martians in the books, but giving the Green Martian a hefty negative Strength modifier probably wouldn't work very well in D&D.

The racial HD are just for ready-made NPCs, PCs would advance in a character class instead.

Eh? If a monster has racial HD it still has racial HD as a PC according to the Monsters as PCs rules. e.g. a Bugbear 2nd level fighter has three Bugbear HD plus two fighter HD. They can't advance by racial HD, but they keep the base racial HD of their species.
​

 

[VelvetViolet]

Then you heard incorrectly. The first five books of the series are public domain in the USA and "Barsoom" cannot be trademarked under the Dastar decision of the United States Supreme Court. They can't legally sue anyone for using that material. While the company you mention tried to shutdown the Sword-And-Planet RPG MARS back in 2007, they failed for obvious reasons.

I'm aware of Carter's "super-strength" relative to the Martians in the books, but giving the Green Martian a hefty negative Strength modifier probably wouldn't work very well in D&D.

I'm using Red martians as the baseline. Green men are stronger, so they get the strength bonus.

Eh? If a monster has racial HD it still has racial HD as a PC according to the Monsters as PCs rules. e.g. a Bugbear 2nd level fighter has three Bugbear HD plus two fighter HD. They can't advance by racial HD, but they keep the base racial HD of their species.

Then I'm just going to take down the monster statistics because they're too confusing.

 

[Cleon]

Then you heard incorrectly. The first five books of the series are public domain in the USA and "Barsoom" cannot be trademarked under the Dastar decision of the United States Supreme Court. They can't legally sue anyone for using that material. While the company you mention tried to shutdown the Sword-And-Planet RPG MARS back in 2007, they failed for obvious reasons.

From what I remember the authors did some editing of the original (2006?) version to alter some bits that the Burroughs estate had a claim to. I have no idea how substantial the changes between these editions were.

I'm using Red martians as the baseline. Green men are stronger, so they get the strength bonus.

That's a reasonable approach. I guess that means an "Earth Man" will get an amazing Strength bonus (plus a huge racial bonus to Jump).

Still, if you want Greenfolk to be adventuring side-by-side with "Standard Races" I think it'd work better if their RP value was lower in order to reduce the challenge level disparity. It should be possible to get all the key Green Martian abilities within a 20 RP budget. There's no point aiming for a lower budget since Multi-Armed is a Monstrous trait, and that's kind of key to a Green Man.

By the way, isn't the current Quadrupedal Movement trait more valuable than the standard Quadruped trait, since the latter has "members of this race use weapons and armor as if they were Medium (instead of Large)." I'd suggest adding that line to it. It'll also fit with the books better, since Green Martians and Red Martians were able to use each others weapons without problems).

Oh, and if only "particularly skilled green men" use three or four weapons doesn't that imply they don't get Multiweapon Fighting as a bonus feat, but that some higher level Green Martians learn that feat?

Then I'm just going to take down the monster statistics because they're too confusing.

One problem is I don't have the Advanced Race Guide so I'm going by the pathfinder reference document site's version of the rules. It'd be easier if they had sample PCs of races with racial HD, but all the Featured/Uncommon races I can see appear to be ones without racial HD.

I think you're right to include monster statistics for a Green Man. If you want a typical Greenie to have X Hit Dice you can always just make the sample an X level warrior. Considering their warlike lifestyle, an average Green Martian could easily be a warrior 3 or warrior 4, like the Guard and Veteran Buccaneer in the NPC Codex.

 

[VelvetViolet]

Still, if you want Greenfolk to be adventuring side-by-side with "Standard Races" I think it'd work better if their RP value was lower in order to reduce the challenge level disparity. It should be possible to get all the key Green Martian abilities within a 20 RP budget. There's no point aiming for a lower budget since Multi-Armed is a Monstrous trait, and that's kind of key to a Green Man.

The Kasatha fit right into 20 RP while making most of the changes you suggested. They can represent green men in a pinch.

By the way, isn't the current Quadrupedal Movement trait more valuable than the standard Quadruped trait, since the latter has "members of this race use weapons and armor as if they were Medium (instead of Large)." I'd suggest adding that line to it. It'll also fit with the books better, since Green Martians and Red Martians were able to use each others weapons without problems).

The quadruped trait is designed for a species with a medium-size torso stuck onto a second torso with the two pairs of legs, like a centaur. It wouldn't make sense for Green martians to use it (that's why they have the size penalty reduced, since by dropping on all fours they lower their target area). Green martians only use medium weapons anyway, since longswords count as a light weapon for them means they can wield two longswords (in off hands) and a longspear (in primary hand) at once with no penalties.

Oh, and if only "particularly skilled green men" use three or four weapons doesn't that imply they don't get Multiweapon Fighting as a bonus feat, but that some higher level Green Martians learn that feat?

That description was written back in 3.0 when Multiweapon Fighting and Multidexterity were different feats.

 

[Cleon]

The Kasatha fit right into 20 RP while making most of the changes you suggested. They can represent green men in a pinch.

That pretty much is a Green Man with the serial numbers filed off. I'd just use that, possibly with some minor tweaking.

The quadruped trait is designed for a species with a medium-size torso stuck onto a second torso with the two pairs of legs, like a centaur. It wouldn't make sense for Green martians to use it (that's why they have the size penalty reduced, since by dropping on all fours they lower their target area).

There's nothing about a torso stuck on a second torso in the description of the Quadruped trait, all it has is "Members of this race possess four legs and two arms", which basically is what a Green Martian has when it switches into walk-on-all-fours mode.

Secondly, there are a lot of illustrations of Green Martians that pretty much show them with a humanoid torso stuck on top of another humanoid torso - the Sean Reynold's conversion you quoted has one such by Michael Whelan from the cover of Gods of Mars. Presumably the Green Martian folds somewhere between these two "torsos" when running on all fours.

However the pertinent point is that the proposed "Semi-Quadruped" trait gives the Green Martian several advantages that the standard Quadruped trait doesn't, so it ought to have a higher RP value. Wielding large weapons instead of Medium ones is a significant advantage, and you've also added a CMD bonus to Bull Rush and cancelled their AC penalty (which should really still apply since they're still Large - a Centaur doesn't ignore that size penalty because its a quadruped).

Green martians only use medium weapons anyway, since longswords count as a light weapon for them means they can wield two longswords (in off hands) and a longspear (in primary hand) at once with no penalties.

If the longswords and longspears are Medium sized than the Green Martian will have a -2 penalty to attack for using an Inappropriately Sized Weapon:

Quoting Pathfinder's Equipment Rules:
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.


Rather than Medium sized Longsword a Large multiarmed creature is better off using a Large sized Shortsword - same damage and threat range but no inappropriate size penalty.

Incidentally, according to the Equipment Rule-As-Written, a Longspear has a 10 ft. Reach but can't attack an adjacent opponent. If we applied that literally, a Green Martian would be better off with a standard Spear, since they can still attack out to 10 ft. (since they have Reach), but can also attack an adjacent square and throw the spear.

That description was written back in 3.0 when Multiweapon Fighting and Multidexterity were different feats.

That doesn't change the problem that mechanically there seems no reason that only "particularly skilled" Green Martians use three or four weapons instead of two, since they have the same penalties whether they wield 2, 3, or 4 weapons at once. They get the same -6 penalty for ALL of their offhands because they have Multiweapon Fighting.

Hmm, one solution would be to give the basic Green Martian a bonus feat of Two-Weapon Fighting instead, then it would be able to wield two weapons proficiently, but only an skillful Green Martian (e.g. one that had gained the Multiweapon Fighting feat) would use three or four weapons in combat.

That ought to be legal since bonus feats don't need to follow a feat's normal Prereqs.

 

[Umbran]

When did Burroughs describe green martians as running on four feet? I don't recall that from when I read the books.

 

[VelvetViolet]

However the pertinent point is that the proposed "Semi-Quadruped" trait gives the Green Martian several advantages that the standard Quadruped trait doesn't, so it ought to have a higher RP value. Wielding large weapons instead of Medium ones is a significant advantage, and you've also added a CMD bonus to Bull Rush and cancelled their AC penalty (which should really still apply since they're still Large - a Centaur doesn't ignore that size penalty because its a quadruped).

I've simplified the quadrupedal movement trait to remove excess advantages. But the Quadruped trait applies to creatures with medium size upper torsos and large lower torsos, like centaurs (that's why quadrupeds uses Medium weapons and armor), not large creatures that can drop to all fours.

That doesn't change the problem that mechanically there seems no reason that only "particularly skilled" Green Martians use three or four weapons instead of two, since they have the same penalties whether they wield 2, 3, or 4 weapons at once. They get the same -6 penalty for ALL of their offhands because they have Multiweapon Fighting.

I would just drop the reference to "particularly skilled."