Ogres As Characters

[shilsen]

Of course the half orc sucks. Read the above comparisons, if they dont help you either way, and you havent even tested them, then agreeing with either side is just a flip of the coin.

Actually in my experience I've found that running a comparison mentally and testing something in-game provides the same results for me. I'd have a lot of problems DM-ing if I couldn't look at a race, class, spell, feat, etc. at 5th level and have a very good idea of exactly what it'll look like at 15th. YMMV.

 

[Elric]

Ok, if anyone wants to stop the ego battle and get back to the thread, my previous posts details a half-ogre very similar to one played by DM_Matt (before he was nerfed) and compares him to other options. I picked that level because I saw the PC in action and it was frightening. Scion, want to take a look at it?

 

[jgsugden]

Gentlemen, let's not devolve into name-calling and hair-pulling, okay?

-Hyp.
(Moderator)

You can pull hair via message boards? I never noticed that button before ... *sweeeeeeeeeeet*

Elric: regarding your numbers, Scion is perfectly capable of ripping those numbers apart to make them look unimportant. He can point to many issues that you didn't mention.

Then, you can point to his analysis and mention plenty of things that his comments fail to notice. This type of cycle can go on and on and on ...

and on ...

and on ...

and off for a few days while you're busy ...

and then back on again ...

When considering balance, you must consider environment to do a useful analysis. An ability to give any animal +50/+50 to all attacks seems ridiculously overpowered ... unless it is present in a world with no animals. Being large seems to open you up to more attacks per round ... unless the party only faces opponents one at a time. Having a penalty when in bright light seems like a significant disadvantage ... unless the game is entirely played in the underdark. Having a +6 racial bonus to strength can seem like a huge advantage ... unless your entire adventuring career takes place in a polymorphed form.

At this point, we've heard enough useful information from both sides to get an idea of the issues to be looking for when considering this race. I continue to urge you to make a few mock characters and do a few mock battles that are typical for your campaign setting. Those simulations will be far more informative than anything you'll get here.

 

[Saeviomagy]

So, on the defensive end, in return for 18% extra HP, the HOgre gets hit 10% less. If the orc is hit 60% of the time (estimate- seems pretty reasonable), the HOgre is hit 50% of the time. This puts the number of strikes to drop the HOgre at 20% extra, so the half-ogre is actually very slightly ahead on defense. The half-ogre has 1 point worse on his reflex save, but is immune the person spells, making his will save less important.

Your mathematics are awful. Really, really awful

Assuming D is the average amount of damage per swing, and H is the percentage chance to hit the orc. S is the number of swings, and is the number we want to find out for both the ogre and the orc.

S(orc)*D*H=39

S(ogre)*D*(H+10%)=33

If we want to find out how these compare with one another, then we can divide one by the other

S(Orc)*(H+10%)               39
---------------------------- = -----
S(Ogre)*H                        33

Now - we need to know a number for H to resolve this. If we assume 50%, then

S(orc)*60%     39
-------------- = ----
S(ogre)*50%   33

S(orc)     39*50%    19.5
-------- = --------- = -----
S(ogre)   33*60%    19.8

Or in other words, the ogre comes out very marginally ahead. He's got a 2% lead on the orc.

But there’s a huge variable missing in all of this- the Half-Ogre has reach! He’s a demon with cleave, a demon with combat reflexes and a demon when you actually put him in a party. I’m comparing him to a no-daylight-penalty Orc, which is far and away the best ECL 0 fighter type race.

Reach isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to be.
Fully 1/3rd of the monsters in the MM have reach 10ft + naturally.

More of them have the capability to use a ranged or reach weapon, tumble, sneak etc, all of which negate reach.

If you constantly fight medium or small sized corporeal opponents who make no effort to ambush you, take advantage or restricted terrain or the like, large size is a big benefit.

If you fight against ranged troops or in restricted terrain, large size is a major disadvantage.

That’s a 135% damage ration for the HOgre. This is level 4, against an Orc with no daylight penalties, a race that is almost certainly too strong for ECL +0 (not that it’s anything but awful at ECL +1). With the exception of the level 6 characters, things only get worse for the orc from here.

Orcs are hardly a strong ECL 0, even ones without daylight penalties.

 

[Elric]

jgsugden- that's a good point. I wasn't using the number here so much to show the half-ogre overpowered as much as I was illustrating DM_Matt's character, who was overpowered in our group. Context will mean a lot for half-ogres, just like any other character.

Saeviomagy- you actually get the exact same results that I do, accounting for rounding errors. I'm sorry if you didn't like the format that I put them in.

Edit- when I said that the HOgre takes 20% more strikes to drop because of his AC, I meant that based on ACs alone. Then when you add the hit points back into the equation, the HOgre comes out very slightly ahead.

Large size is a problem in confined areas. However, some of the time you want to clog up a greater area- large size is an advantage there. Combat Reflexes means that you can take attacks of opportunity while flatfooted. Also, 10-foot reach makes it easier to get full attacks in at higher levels. Enemies have a much harder time grappling/tripping you and if you use these maneuvers, you have a much greater chance of success than a medium-sized character.

Orcs with no daylight penalties would be the strongest ECL 0 race for a strength based melee fighter/barb type. Obviously, they still wouldn't be good Sorcerers.

 

[Saeviomagy]

jgsugden- that's a good point. I wasn't using the number here so much to show the half-ogre overpowered as much as I was illustrating DM_Matt's character, who was overpowered in our group. Context will mean a lot for half-ogres, just like any other character.

Saeviomagy- you actually get the exact same results that I do, accounting for rounding errors. I'm sorry if you didn't like the format that I put them in.

Edit- when I said that the HOgre takes 20% more strikes to drop because of his AC, I meant that based on ACs alone. Then when you add the hit points back into the equation, the HOgre comes out very slightly ahead.

That wasn't clear - I thought the half ogre was coming out 20% ahead, which would be a very significant margin (virtually equal to a couple of CR all on it's own).

Large size is a problem in confined areas. However, some of the time you want to clog up a greater area- large size is an advantage there. Combat Reflexes means that you can take attacks of opportunity while flatfooted. Also, 10-foot reach makes it easier to get full attacks in at higher levels. Enemies have a much harder time grappling/tripping you and if you use these maneuvers, you have a much greater chance of success than a medium-sized character.

Large size stops you charging through any area less than 10 ft wide and exposes you to far more AoO's and tends to mean you get no cover against missile attacks.

If we take the adventure path modules to be typical, then out of the 5 that I've been in, 2 have been set in restricted dungeon environments, and one in a partially restricted dungeon environment. In any of these 3, I seriously doubt that a half ogre would get much utility out of his reach, while at the same time would be badly hindered by his large size. In fact in the current dungeon we're in, the 3.5 size changes are making a massive difference in encounters - we're basically not having problems with our opponents reach as we can negate it on a routine basis. At the same time our opponents (due to their size) cannot attack us as an organised group.

Orcs with no daylight penalties would be the strongest ECL 0 race for a strength based melee fighter/barb type. Obviously, they still wouldn't be good Sorcerers.

 

[Iku Rex]

You can;t be enlarged...you're a giant, not a person.

(This is unclear. Why do half-ogres have the "giant blood" ability if they're giants?)

 

[Hypersmurf]

(This is unclear. Why do half-ogres have the "giant blood" ability if they're giants?)

See Table A-59. It's incredibly clear that they're Giants. It's unclear why they need the giant blood ability. Which did you mean?

-Hyp.

 

[Iku Rex]

See Table A-59. It's incredibly clear that they're Giants. It's unclear why they need the giant blood ability.

Bah. If we're being dogmatic, I declare that it's incredibly clear that half-ogres are humanoids.

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of aprimary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry.

-- 3.5 PH errata.

The race description says that they're not giants. (As the giant blood ability is absurd if they're giants.) This takes precedence over the table entry.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The race description says that they're not giants. (As the giant blood ability is absurd if they're giants.)

The race description doesn't say they're giants. The race description says that for all special abilities and effects, they're considered giants.

This doesn't contradict the only statement of their actual type, which is found in the table.

A clear and unambiguous entry in the table trumps an inference from the text. Both can, in fact, be true. They're giants, who are considered giants for all special abilities and effects.

-Hyp.