Ogres As Characters

[Scion]

The difference in power level between a Half-Ogre Ftr1 and a Half-Orc Ftr2 is a lot less than between a Half-Ogre Ftr8 and a Half-Orc Ftr9.

Of course the half orc sucks. Read the above comparisons, if they dont help you either way, and you havent even tested them, then agreeing with either side is just a flip of the coin.

 

[Elric]

Ok, here is DM_Matt’s half ogre from before, with a couple of changes. Note that the half-ogre is more powerful than a classed character by level 4.

HOgre Barb1/Fighter2

Str: 22 (16+ 6)
Dex: 14 (16 -2)
Con: 16 (14 +2)
Int: 10 (12 -2)
Wis: 8 (8)
Cha: 8 (10-2)

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
AC: 15 + armor (10-1size+2dex+4Nat)
HP: 33 (15+9+9)
Speed: 40
Attack: Greatsword +9, DMG 3d6+9 w/ 2for1 power attack, cleave, 3 AOOs/round (AV DMG: 19.5, up to 25.5 with PA)...I also recommend a masterword GS to help that bab up to +10
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +2, Will -1

Note that the orc is not a particularly good basis for comparison with the half-ogre, since the question is really about balance compared to PC races. Plus, I’ve seen two half-ogres in action, but strangely, no one wants to play an orc… too freaking ugly

Orc Barb 2/Fighter 2
Str: 20 (16 + 4)
Dex: 16 (15 +1 level)
Con: 14 (14)
Int: 10 (12-2)
Wis 8 (10-2)
Cha 8 (10-2)

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, 1 more feat which is probably nowhere near as good as combat reflexes is for the half-ogre.

AC: 13 + armor
HP: 39 (14+ 9 + 8 + 8)
Speed: 40
Saves:
Fort +8, Reflex +3, Will -1
Attack: Greatsword +10, dmg 2d6+7.5 (since the strength choices are a little arbitrary, I’ll give him the extra half-point of damage). Average dmg 14.5. It will usually be worth it to power attack for 1 (unless you hit less than half the time which, since I haven’t taken masterwork weapons or magic into account, shouldn’t happen very often).

He also has the daylight penalties, which I could incorporate as something like -0.5 to hit, but I’m going to be nice and ignore them. Note that the PH race, the ½ Orc, has -2 Str, +2 Wis and no daylight penalty by comparison. And he’s as good as it gets for a fighter-type in the PH.

So, on the defensive end, in return for 18% extra HP, the HOgre gets hit 10% less. If the orc is hit 60% of the time (estimate- seems pretty reasonable), the HOgre is hit 50% of the time. This puts the number of strikes to drop the HOgre at 20% extra, so the half-ogre is actually very slightly ahead on defense. The half-ogre has 1 point worse on his reflex save, but is immune the person spells, making his will save less important.

On offense, these characters are very good, so assume that the HOgre hits 60% of the time—then, the orc should power attack for 1, at least. So, the Orc now hits 60% of the time as well, for 16.5 damage. The HOgre does 11.7 damage/round to his opponent, not counting criticals. Then, criticals add another 1.2, so 12.9 damage/round

But there’s a huge variable missing in all of this- the Half-Ogre has reach! He’s a demon with cleave, a demon with combat reflexes and a demon when you actually put him in a party. I’m comparing him to a no-daylight-penalty Orc, which is far and away the best ECL 0 fighter type race.

What happens if you try to give the Orc reach? It isn’t pretty.

Orc Barb 2/Fighter 2
Str: 20 (16 + 4)
Dex: 16 (15 +1 level)
Con: 14 (14)
Int: 10 (12-2)
Wis 8 (10-2)
Cha 8 (10-2)

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, EWP: Spiked Chain

AC: 13 + armor
HP: 39 (14+ 9 + 8 + 8)
Speed: 40
Saves: Fort +8, Reflex +3, Will -1
Attack: Spiked Chain +10, dmg 2d4+7.5 (since the strength choices are a little arbitrary, I’ll give him the extra half-point of damage). Average dmg 12.5. Crit x2 now.
Special: Uncanny Dodge- this is a valuable ability, but notice that the ACs for the two characters are still the same when they are flatfooted.

Since your damage is suddenly terrible, power attack is more valuable. Say that you power attack for 2 on an opponent that you hit 65% of the time normally, bringing your damage back up to 16.5. Now, you do 9.1 damage/round against this imaginary opponent, not counting criticals. Adding criticals adds 0.45 damage, so 9.55 overall.

That’s a 135% damage ration for the HOgre. This is level 4, against an Orc with no daylight penalties, a race that is almost certainly too strong for ECL +0 (not that it’s anything but awful at ECL +1). With the exception of the level 6 characters, things only get worse for the orc from here.

edit- fixed a typo.

 

[Darklone]

I just want to point out again something that has been mentioned, but not emphasized enough IMHO: The point buy advantage for the half-ogre. I had some halfogre builds proposed by players in low powered point buy campaigns where the halfogres actually ended up with the best mental stats and Dex compared to fighter who tried to get a good strength... and the halfogres strength was still higher.

 

[Numion]

Care to point out where I twisted any numbers? Otherwise this is just a blatant attack and hissy fit. I've only layed down the numbers above, and then talked about them. people have come in later to 'twist' what I meant, but that isnt relevant. Where did I twist anything?

Duh, if you find HOgre balanced byt the numbers you've got the numbers wrong. Or the numbers don't reflect actual play. Thats the thing that actually counts, remember? Actual play.

BTW, if that was a 'blatant attack' you need a thicker skin. It's quite obvious that both sides try to present the numbers as favorable to their opinion. Thats twisting them.

I have seen one in play, thanks for asking. I'm really surprised that people are still coming in here and saying such things. Just read what i said earlier. How much are these things worth? can you give better examples than what I have given above? Orc vs HalfOgre comes out pretty even at +1, and horribly so at +2.

I haven't seen Orcs as PCs really, so I can't comment on that.

Ahh.. good.. more 'obvious' interpretations. Care to actually back this up with something?

I already did, thankyouverymuch. I've played with an HOgre in D&D, and found it totally out of whack balance-wise. D&D isn't solely an exercise in maths. Numbercrunching doesn't tell how something works in play. So thats the fact you're looking for: HOgre at +1 LA flunked playtesting. A much more important test than your numbers

 

[jgsugden]

I'll repeat (and add onto) some advice that was given by a pretty smart person earlier in this thread:

There are obviously differences of opinion regarding the balance of half-ogres as PCs. There are significant issues that point towards both sides of the argument. If you are considering using them in your game, but do not wish to do so if they would be unbalancing to your game, the only thing to do is to make some mock characters and run them through some game simulations. Considering how different each and every campaign and DM tends to be, it is the *only* way to know if the race will upset balance in your campaign world.

 

[dcollins]

Considering how different each and every campaign and DM tends to be, it is the *only* way to know if the race will upset balance in your campaign world.

I agree. For example, it's useful to keep in mind that Scion is the poster who said in another threead, "Most games I've been in have had an average world population level of 11 or 12" (i.e., village peasants are usually 11th level), and hence his comments about playtesting half-ogres have to be interpreted as coming from that environment, and why he thinks nearly every class and race is underpowered.

Reading this thread myself, I've been persuaded that half-ogres need to be at least +2 level adjustment.

 

[Scion]

As you neither allow pm's nor emails dcollins I am forced to put this on here.

I would appreciate if you would amend your post. Saying that a world average is high does not mean that everyone is high. There are other races in the world than humans, some of which have 20+ CR to begin with. Takeing all of these factors into account for a world that is designed to go from fairly low level up through epic makes the world average much higher than the 1.2 or so that your world is. Or perhaps you are assuming that anything non-human does not count, I dont know.

Along with the part about my finding nearly ever race and class underpowered. I have been very outspoken on halforcs and fighters, that is hardly a good representation of even a majority. I definately feel that it is necisarry to be outspoken to some degree to make people aware that there may be a problem, plus I like to get to the point quickly most of the time. This leads people to believe that I am being abrassive, an unfortunate side effect.

Like I said, I would just appreciate if you changed the part that was untrue.

Moving on,

Numion, saying that something is a blatant attack is not an indication of thick or thin skin. Merely stating it as I saw it, are you denying that is what it was?

Twisting the information? So then, you must also be twisting the information to come up with the point of view that I am. All well and good. Now, would you care to show where the information is misrepresented? Stating that it is wrong is your opinion, and in my opinion you are blatantly wrong. Good now, we have the basis down.

I would break down the other arguements and show where I feel they are wrong but it hardly matters. Reach is impressive early on, later on it does very little and can be avoided with a vast number of tactics. As for everything else the guy has balances out nicely as a +1 as I have shown. At +2 he is just weak, as has also been shown. For each game some race/class combos will be too powerful so let the people make their own determination based on the numbers and their own experience. However, stating over and over again that it is 'obviously' overpowered just doesnt hold up. Strong +1 but very limited in scope, or very weak +2 even more limited in scope, your choice.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Ha! Well, just because it's possible doesn't mean that it would be fun in the long run. The key term I used was "role-playable". I guess I was thinking of the times when I, as DM, enjoyed roleplaying a peasant who had a great personality. Of course, I didn't have to live with that character in the long run or have him join the adventuring party. So yeah, you right, I WAS greatly exaggerating to make the point that good roleplaying has nothing to do with game mechanics or the character's effectiveness in or out of battle.

Ah. While you may have meant role-playable, you typed roll-playable. I agree that they are role-playable; anything with an Int score is by definition role-playable. I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, just thought it amusing.

 

[Numion]

Numion, saying that something is a blatant attack is not an indication of thick or thin skin. Merely stating it as I saw it, are you denying that is what it was?

Well yes, I am. I didn't attack you, but rather your arguments in the case. Taking those comments personally implies a thin skin.

It's clear though who's having a hissy fit here:

...if you would amend your post...

Or what, you'll sue the boards?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Gentlemen, let's not devolve into name-calling and hair-pulling, okay?

-Hyp.
(Moderator)