Ogres As Characters

[Scion]

I think half-orc is fine as a race. Half-orcs are on the weak side of ECL +0 and dwarves and humans are on the strong side of ECL +0, but I think all of the PHB races work just fine as ECL +0.

Humans are an odd one, they can be strong or weak depending on the feat and skill choices. Dwarves are definately strong. Halforcs are too weak. Of course by too weak I am attempting to encompass a huge set of variables such as flavor, combat, out of combat, situational, whatever.. they just come up lacking, it would be easy to add in a few things to make them more interesting, useful, and just plain better without upsetting the ecl issue. Just make them better!!

Try playing a Goblin (also ECL +0) some time.

I've played a kobold even, who wasnt a sorcerer or even a primary caster.. gasp indeed I'm sure. It is all about having fun, but the baseline should be balanced.

Again, people can have fun doing anything or whatever. But the baseline should still have a balancing point somewhere. Some people need this more than others, to some it is just plain essential. Not everyone is an incredible player or dm, making the baseline as even as possible helps them. The others can add or take away as they wish, that has no bearing on the issue.

 

[Larcen]

Apparently you have no idea what I am talking about. Thats fine, but i certainly dont know how to enlighten you...... I just dont understand where all of the hate came from....

?! Whoa. Where did this come from ? What hate? I'm sorry if I came across as hateful, but that was definately not my intention. I even threw a couple of smileys in there and everything. Ask anyone who knows me, I am pretty happy-go-lucky guy. I thought we were having a friendly conversation here, not getting ugly.

As you say, I may have missed the gist of your point. But I also feel I didn't make mine clear enough. All I was doing was trying to defend half-orcs, since I am thinking of playing one and have seen others play them successfully.

I was guessing (correct me if am wrong) that the main complaint people have about half-orcs is the extra stat penalty they get and I was trying to explain in my last post why that, in itself, should not make or break them as viable PCs.

And the best example I could think of for that is to state that people have been playing party members for years that didn't have stats that all added up to the same number of bonuses. Sometimes they were vastly different, more so than a given character having an extra -2.

To some people that kind of game balance is just not THAT important. Anymore important then 4d6 will naturally make some PCs more powerful than others. If balanced stats were honest and truly all that important, random generation methods would not exist. Like they do now for a lot of players and like they did back in 1E for all players.

Let me give you another example that I hope doesn't confuse the issue even more. Sorcerers by a lot of people's reckoning are weaker than wizards. But I still would rather play a sorcerer. Why? Because, despite any perceived game mechanic flaw, I think they are WAY COOLER than wizards. I would rather play a charismatic character that travels light (no spellbooks) than a stuffy bookworm tied to his musty tomes.

Well, the same can be said for half-orcs. Some people play them because, despite all, they feel they are just plain cool. Maybe they like playing big, smelly, obnoxious, one dimensional half-breeds. Those people do not look at the race rules and say, "whoa, they get an extra stat penalty? forget it!" They just don't care. They are taking the race for other reasons. Hopefully sometimes roleplaying reasons.

Take the half-orc in our party for example. He is the most fleshed out character we have, IMO. And he certainly doesn't fit the half-orc mold of a brainless warrior. In fact, he is trying very hard to civiliize and sophisticate himself and fit into human society. It's a very cool character with lots of angst and depth. Would have been a shame if the player had discounted him on account of the extra -2 to his INT. (INT was the stat that he really hated losing out on, due to the character concept.)

Maybe you will get offended again. Maybe it will be because I am stating the obvious here. Maybe because I am still missing your point. But, when you make statements like this I feel I must defend the hapless half-orcs:

"Halforcs are a boring race, they have no real bonuses save one, and have a more than one penalty. It doesnt balance out. It, in general, isnt fun to play as compared to a race that has interesting things behind it."

I am just not seeing how half-orcs are so boring and uninteresting as compared to the others races. Because they are sub-optimal game mechanically?? Call me dense, but I just don't see it.

Sorry if I am coming across wrong again. Just in case, here are some extra smileys for you:




(Please don't take any of that as highhanded and sarcastic. I am truly trying to avoid confrontation here. Just having good conversation. Ok?)

 

[Larcen]

You can;t be enlarged...you're a giant, not a person. Unless thare are not other spellcasters around, very minor utility spells on your melee guy arent going to be all that useful at the beginning and will be an afterthought pretty quickly. Really, what really good thing are oyu going to get out of it? Detect Spells? Definately not worth a level and whatever sacrifices are built into the DD class for it. I guess feather fall is nice, but really most of these spells can be duplicated by cheap items anyhow.

The SRD says that the target for Enlarge is "One humanoid creature", a ogre wouldn't qualift for that? I don't even see a size limit for the spell either.

And I dunno, if I can free of the main spellcaster's slots by taking the boring Detect and utility spells, why not? Especially at lows levels when the cheap items you mentioned will probably not be that abundant anyhow. Anyway, I am just trying to make the best of this imposed sorcerer level.

 

[Scion]

I'll skip over most of it, sorry if I was jumping the gun. I have seen way too many people just law down 'the law' about how great their old games were run even though some people had straight 6's and others had straight 25's.

Whether or not someone can have fun is just so far outside of the debate as to be pointless That is all, plus it seems that people will say that sort of thing as above, plus say, 'you are the dm, your word is law, rule 0 is king, dont bother making any points'.. personally I would prefer to just talk things out, see how they stand, and then make judgements

Unfortunately it is hard on here usually, just from the sheer complication of useing a language that is full of errors or miscommunications.

I'll state again about the half orcs, they are boring. Even the human is boring to some degree, but he is meant to be so versitile that it isnt even funny. that extra feat of your choice, plus skill points to put where ever you want make for a huge amount of diversity and so in the end they have flavor.

Dwarves.. well, we wont talk about them much, other than saying they have a huge pile of abilities.. most of which are flavorful.. the power of them is generally considered very high

elves.. immunity to sleep magic? almost never comes up, but it is nice flavor yes? weapon proficiency, shows some of their racial heritage. Bonus to a few skills, shows off their incredible senses. Walking within 5 feet of something secret, not terribly powerful but very cool.

gnomes.. various illusion bonuses, bonuses against certain races, listen and alchemy bonuses, plus a spell like ability. None of these really raise the power of the race by a lot, but they do add a lot of flavor, something to make them unique.

halfelves.. these guys at least got a bit of a boost in 3.5.. in 3.0 I gave them the choice of either the +1 skill point per level or the bonus feat. before that no one even considered taking them, why bother? if you want elf traits be an elf, if you want human traits be a human.. now at least they have some more power behind them, something to make them more interesting and flavorful.. they get some bonuses to a few skills, more so than either parent, more than the sum of the parts if you will..

halflings.. what is more cool than being part Ling? they get bonuses to listen, climb, jump and move silently. making them seem like small, silent stalkers as we all know true lings are.. bonuses to a few saves, and even bonus to some throwing! just little things mostly, but they are all very nice, and help to show the race apart from the others..

now we get to halforcs.. they have.. orc blood.. usually a penalty.. an extra -2 penalty to stats, and darkvision.. so basically all they have going for them is darkvision and ... well.. they are.. umm.. part orc..

it would seem easy and prudent to give them a few little things to make them more unique, more flavorful, better at least slightly at something.. I have listed various things they could have been given before.. but still, just give them something!!

I said that those who take it are generally more rollplayers than roleplayers, and I still think that is true. They take it for the +2 str and who cares about the rest? Others may take it to be different or whatever, but they could do that with any race so that isnt exactly a ringing endorsement for this one.

I definately feel that everything should be fairly equal in the baseline, ESPECIALLY in the core material. The fact that this guy hasnt gotten upped at least a little is just plain shocking.. maybe someday though..

Again, sorry if I overreacted to your statement, still not sure if I did or not as you restated the same thing again saying that you had fun with unbalanced things just isnt relevant, you may be really good at roleplaying.. others need a bit more help, and it just helps a great deal to make things even to begin with, give everyone interesting options, and make every choice something that is unique in some way.

 

[Scion]

The SRD says that the target for Enlarge is "One humanoid creature", a ogre wouldn't qualift for that? I don't even see a size limit for the spell either.

And I dunno, if I can free of the main spellcaster's slots by taking the boring Detect and utility spells, why not? Especially at lows levels when the cheap items you mentioned will probably not be that abundant anyhow. Anyway, I am just trying to make the best of this imposed sorcerer level.

Sadly enough Giant has not been changed to Humanoid(Giant) yet.. maybe someday! for now giants are not humanoid.. makes sense right? didnt think so..lol

As for the sorcerer level I think the spells I suggested ealier work fine or make something up that works really well for the character.. sort of like the ogre, ogre thing.. make sure to get good cantrips too.. prestidigitation to make your clothes dirty for ogre civilizations and clean for human ones.. or the other way around if it strikes your fancy

 

[Larcen]

And I think that the demons possessing my dog wish to slay me and devour my soul.

Ha! Well, just because it's possible doesn't mean that it would be fun in the long run. The key term I used was "role-playable". I guess I was thinking of the times when I, as DM, enjoyed roleplaying a peasant who had a great personality. Of course, I didn't have to live with that character in the long run or have him join the adventuring party. So yeah, you right, I WAS greatly exaggerating to make the point that good roleplaying has nothing to do with game mechanics or the character's effectiveness in or out of battle.

 

[pawsplay]

Ogres are cool, but you need to be at least ECL 7 or you will suck. The simple fact is, without class levels, you are a 4 HD giant. Nobody wants to be a 4 HD giant. Don't be that guy.

Now, slap on some Barbarian, Fighter, whatever, and you're in business.

By the same token, with +1 LA, half-ogre has Large too early (and hence is too deadly), but takes a severe HD bite, as examined above. Unless you are at least ECL 4, your hit points are going to be too low. Because it's only one level, saves, BAB, etc are not so much of an issue. And natural reach is something CR 3 to 5 opponents probably have some means of dealing with.

 

[Larcen]

I'll skip over most of it...

Ah! Thanks for posting all that for my slow self. I now understand what you are trying to say much better. And yes, I agree now with how you define half-orcs as "boring" in the way that the game doesn't really give them any "hook" other than that +2 to STR.

Hopefully, some people will use that lack of, ahem, character as a clean slate and make a truly unique PC. But as you say, most will probably lock on to that +2 STR. And to be honest that is MY incentive for considering them now. Heck, it is the whole reason for this entire thread. i.e. How do I get a race that is a strong as possible for my Dragon Disciple STR bonuses to really kick in?

Anyway, thanks again. I have to run for now and go join some friends in our weekly Ghost Recon online game Will check back on this thread tomorrow to see if someone has convinced me yet to take one race over another for this DD character. As it is, I will need to reread all this and take notes since there were so many good ideas presented.

Oh yeah, and another good thing came out of this thread....I broke 400 !

 

[Scion]

Taken from my previous post:

Lets look at a level 13 case (chosen at random)
16, 10, 16, 12, 12, 12 = 34 point buy, correct?
human barbarian 13
13d12 + 39 = avg 129
BAB 13
str 19 (+4), dex 10, con 16 (+3), wis 12 (+1), int 12 (+1), cha 12 (+1)
F +8 ((+3)), R +4 ((+0)), W +4 ((+1))
Abilities of a 13th level barb
skill points 96, max ranks 16, +1 feat

halfogre barb 11
11d12 + 44 = 121
BAB 11
str 24 (+7), dex 8 (-1), con 18 (+4), wis 12 (+1), int 10, cha 10
F +7 ((+4)), R+3 ((-1)), W+3 ((+1))
Abilities of a 11th level barb
skill points 56, max ranks 14

Orc barb 13
13d12 +39 = avg 129
BAB 13
str 23 (+6), dex 10, con 16 (+3), wis 10, int 10, cha 10
F +8 ((+3)), R +4 ((+0)), W +4 ((+0))
Abilities of a 13th level barb
skill points 64, max rank 16

So the orc has 8 more avg hp, better bab, only missing 1 point of str (which will be caught up some levels, surpassed in others with rage), better reflex save, the extra two levels of barb abilities, 8 more skill points, 2 higher ranks.

which for the halfogre turns into reach, +4 natural armor and thats it.

So does reach and +4 natural armor equal 8hp, 2 BAB, +2 reflex, 2 levels of class abilities, 8 skill points, 2 higher max ranks?

This is at the +2 LA. These totals just dont add up, hence my concern over +2 just being too weak, and if you want to go this route to instead use +1 LA and one giant hd.

Personally, I equate reach to effectively one feat, the natural armor could be argued to be worth up to two feats (it all depends on how you look at it, and I think that the dodge feat should grant a +1 anytime you arent denied your dex bonus, not just to one target.. saves on bookkeeping, and frustrates new players much less) so one feat for the +1, and another feat to upgrade it to +4.. I say it that way because it isnt worth 3 feats. And inertial armor is only 1 feat, more or less. So you could say, one feat for inerial armor like feat, one more to change it to a different bonus type.

So 3 feats.

At LA +1 the halfogre loses 4hp, 1 BAB, +1 reflex, 1 level of class abilities, 4 skill points, 1 higher skill max ranks.

Since weapon focus is +1, but is only good for one weapon +1 BAB is effectively one feat. The hp wander around so much as to be a wash more or less. +1 reflex is half of a feat. 4 skill points? hard to call, but it is sortof like one feat with +2/+2 so one feat. One level of class abilities? usually class abilities are the equivalent or better than a feat. 1 higher max rank for all skills? this is impossible to determine, 5% better chance to succeed at a skill, this is a constant throughout their carear.

so a total of something around 3 feats as well. A little give or take here and there, but I would prefer to not say 3.5 feats

At lower levels it could be that reach is too strong, although it is possible to have a spiked chain at level 1 which does exactly the same thing with reach, and you still only get one AOO whether your reach is 10' or 20'. At higher levels most creatures have reach anyway, can bypass your reach fairly easily, use range attacks, or can use tactics to negate your reach in some way, so it is a fairly minor but nice benefit.

I still contend that the halfogre is effectively fine at +1. He is good at being a melee hog, but nothing else. Good trade off, and most dm's should be able to use this in ways that dont matter. If they are a bit hesitant of that then setting the halfogres max starting str to 20 or 22 fixes just about all of the rest of the problems, sure it is an artificial and somewhat odd cap, but if it is needed for a dm's peice of mind then sure. However, +2 LA is just too big of a hit, as shown above.

 

[pawsplay]

+2 LA for half-ogre would make them bait for archers and casters.