Ogres As Characters

[Larcen]

Because you are getting the higher bonus for cheaper, you are able to play the character you want, and you are able to get other appropriate feats not open to other characters.

I didnt say it was a great option, I said it was an option to those who feel that the race is too powerful. I said I would rather that be what happens over making it a +2 LA which weakens it too much.

Of course if you think that the halforc as written is a worthwhile race then we have nothing left to talk about..lol.. it has some serious 'issues' that need to be worked through.

Ha. I meant that a half-orc is better than a half-ogre with LA and max stat limits imposed on it.

Just curious, if what you are looking for is a character that is a strong as possible, why is the half-orc so terrible? I see more people taking them as a race than, say, gnomes. There's gotta be something to that.

 

[Scion]

Just because there is a lot of gnome hate in the world

Really though, it is the only core race option to have a str of 20 at first level. That is of course an advantage. However, the cost for that advantage is way too high. You pay for that bonus, and then pay for it again, and then again.

Wotc said that the reason that halforcs werent changed was becuase 'lots' of people use them so they must not be that bad. I'd have to say that the vast majority of those people dont care as much about roleplaying or the rest of the game as just getting that, 'me crush em all to mush' attitude. It is clearly mechanically inferior. It has little to no flavor.

sure people can inject flavor into their campaigns, sure there are some optional rules that could make them better, sure some rp choices can only be done by the hulking brutes. But that doesnt mean that they cant be balanced properly to make them not only an interesting choice, but a useful one. Currently they just dont have it.

Again, the max str was just for the nay sayers. If you max out the str at 22, halforcs still cant get that high, orcs can but there may be other reasons not to do that. 22 is still respectable, but less likely to break these peoples games which seem to have some odd fixations. All in all though, it was a suggestion of a fix where I see little to no problem to begin with. To appease people as it were. sometimes compromises have to be made.

 

[Larcen]

Not for nothing, but I think you are overreacting to the extra -2 orcs get. Just pretend that the final adjusted stats weren't point buy and that they were rolled that way. Would you say that a party that rolled it's stats (instead of point buy) is unbalanced and unplayable because some characters rolled better than others? Of course not. So I don't see how a -2 in one more stat limits a half-orcs roleplaying possibilities. I think that a good player can make a zero level commoner will all average stats roll-playable.

You said that the vast majority of people who take half-orcs dont care as much about roleplaying and then go on to say it's mechanically inferior. Game mechanics have nothing to do with role-playing, IMO.

Back in the day, circa 1E, when we rolled stats the REAL way (3d6 in order ), we used to play with party members with wildly unbalanced stats for years and years and years. And we had FUN.

 

[Scion]

Apparently you have no idea what I am talking about. Thats fine, but i certainly dont know how to enlighten you.

Halforcs are a boring race, they have no real bonuses save one, and have a more than one penalty. It doesnt balance out. It, in general, isnt fun to play as compared to a race that has interesting things behind it.

anyone can of course have fun with anything, that isnt up for debate, i even said the exact same thing in my last post.

I am afraid that you are the one who is drastically overstating and overreacting to some fairly simple and innocuous comments that I have made.

Either you are deliberately misunderstanding or just not reading what I've said. Possibly even just misreading. But repeatidly misreading leads me to believe it is the former. Currently your entire last post either mistates, misreprents, or second guesses my posts, I just dont understand where all of the hate came from.

Doesnt really matter though, I've made my case and have tried to be as polite as possible. Fun can be had anywhere and anytime, this is a game to have fun with WHILE PLAYING. If you are constantly being overshadowed and dont get your time in the sun then who is having fun? If everyone else has the system working for them to make it interesting while you have to fight the system who is having fun? In the end everyone can have fun with anything, I would prefer it to be balanced at the start so that everyone may have fun equally, without need to artificially inflate certain things in the game just to be able to have certain things be fun.

I'll go have fun with my game, you have fun with yours. Since you can have fun anywhere then I hope my way wins out because I think my way makes it easier for everyone to have fun at the same time. Have a good one.

 

[DM_Matt]

I figured his DD STR bonuses would make up for this. Especially at the 10th level DD payoff. (Of course it's long wait until then.)

Besides, I am looking forward to the other DD benefits as well.



You make it sound like the level of Sorcerer will be totally useless. I can think of several spells that would be useful to anyone. Most of them can be used out of melee so they will not sacrifice valuable hacking time. I'm sure you can't deny the usefulness of these spells, in and out of battle:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat,Feather Fall, Grease, Hold Portal, Identify, Jump, Magic Weapon, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Protection From Evil, Reduce Person, Shield, Silent Image, Summon Monster I, True Strike, Unseen Servant, Ventriloquism
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey, if all he did with his spells powers was to detect for secret doors and magic, the party would still appreciate that I think. And there are even better spells on that list.

I wonder how effective will an Enlarged half-0gre be?

You can;t be enlarged...you're a giant, not a person. Unless thare are not other spellcasters around, very minor utility spells on your melee guy arent going to be all that useful at the beginning and will be an afterthought pretty quickly. Really, what really good thing are oyu going to get out of it? Detect Spells? Definately not worth a level and whatever sacrifices are built into the DD class for it. I guess feather fall is nice, but really most of these spells can be duplicated by cheap items anyhow.

 

[Scion]

Definately true strike, it will probably wind up being the only spell that is cast.

I would suggest that for that one level of whatever that the player and dm talk, another fairly useful 1st level spell should be devised or imported. I would actually suggest true strike, feather fall, jump, and endure elements. Possibly some really strange spell made up just for that character. Say one sortof like alterself, but different. Ever read, 'Ogre, ogre' by piers anthony? If so then something like that, for a limited duration. If not then I will pm the details if you like, I wouldnt want to ruin it for anyone who hasnt read it

 

[Sir Whiskers]

...Halforcs are a boring race, they have no real bonuses save one, and have a more than one penalty. It doesnt balance out. It, in general, isnt fun to play as compared to a race that has interesting things behind it.

Interestingly enough, half-orcs are played most often in my group because we want to go against type: the half-orc druid or monk. Sure it's a sub-optimal choice, but it has the virtue of not being "same ol, same ol". I agree that balance among the various characters is important, but it's not the only consideration in the choice of a race.

...If you are constantly being overshadowed and dont get your time in the sun then who is having fun?

I think we can all agree with this sentiment. Where there seems to be disagreement is whether or not playing a half-ogre violates your stricture about being overshadowed. After all, if one character (the half-ogre) overshadows the others, it's not much fun for everyone else. For my group, the half-ogre is too good, so it's not allowed as is. If it meshes with your group (or anyone else's), then go for it. There simply isn't an objective right or wrong in this discussion.

...Either you are deliberately misunderstanding or just not reading what I've said.

Scion, I don't believe anyone is being deliberately obstinate or unfair to your points. Some folks (myself included) have just not been convinced by them. That is not because you've been unclear or clumsy in presenting your views. But given that eveyone's campaign is different, your analysis simply isn't going to apply to everyone. As I said, there's no universal right or wrong here.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

I think that a good player can make a zero level commoner will all average stats roll-playable.

And I think that the demons possessing my dog wish to slay me and devour my soul.

 

[Endur]

I think half-orc is fine as a race. Half-orcs are on the weak side of ECL +0 and dwarves and humans are on the strong side of ECL +0, but I think all of the PHB races work just fine as ECL +0.

Orcs are on the strong side of ECL +0.

Try playing a Goblin (also ECL +0) or a Kobold (worse yet) some time.

Of course if you think that the halforc as written is a worthwhile race then we have nothing left to talk about..lol.. it has some serious 'issues' that need to be worked through.

 

[Scion]

Scion, I don't believe anyone is being deliberately obstinate or unfair to your points. Some folks (myself included) have just not been convinced by them. That is not because you've been unclear or clumsy in presenting your views. But given that eveyone's campaign is different, your analysis simply isn't going to apply to everyone. As I said, there's no universal right or wrong here.

I was more concerned with comments like this, 'Back in the day, circa 1E, when we rolled stats the REAL way (3d6 in order ), we used to play with party members with wildly unbalanced stats for years and years and years. And we had FUN.' which seems to be deliberately bad.. I would use a worse word but it doesnt really fit, it is just a vague sort of thing. Some people could have fun playing a pet rock, that isnt the issue here. Nor are old stories about the good old days..lol

I dont care if people are persuaded to either side by my posts, so long as they realize there is another side out there and get all of the facts. If I miss any facts then definately bring them up. I've even tried to say in each of my posts that opinions will differ and are very campaign dependent. Hence the comment about deliberately misunderstanding clear enough this time hopefully.

You are right though, halforc druid is definately a suboptimal choice. All of the penalties, none of the bonuses. This may be a way to go 'against the norm' but still, why be hit so hard by it? They could have at least given the half orc favored enemy: any, or a choice of a few different bonus feats, or +'s to a few different skills. There are lots of interesting ideas floating around that dont make them more powerful, merely more interesting. They are still sadly lacking.

If your characters want a change or whatever that is what savage species was designed for. While there are some balance issues, which your characters may not care about, it definately fits the role. Plus being much better at it than the halforc could even on his best day. Mileage does vary, but that doesnt mean there still cant be discussions about where the baseline should be.