Ogres As Characters

[Scion]

Let's just start off by being honest:

all right, but has anyone been dishonest up to now?

If you're going to play a half-ogre, you're pretty much limited to being a melee fighter. They make lousy missile weapons specialists and even worse spellcasters. So, we're only interested in their fighting ability in melee combat.

Fair enough, but you could be a missile specialist, with a really huge composite bow. Spellcasters you could still do, some people still play halforc as a cleric after all. You could even do bard, you wouldnt be good at it, but you could. Still though, you will be substandard at most of these to be sure.

Let's compare a 4th level human barbarian with a 3rd level half-ogre barbarian. They have the same ECL, so they should be equivalent.

All right, and next we'll do a 6th level barb vs 5th level halfogre barb.

If the human fighter started off with a 17 strength, his strength would now be 18 (or 22 when raging). His AB and damage with a greatsword would be +8 (2d6+6=13 average) or +10 (2d6+9=16). If power attacking fully, this goes to +4 (2d6+12=19) or +6 (2d6+15=22).

The half-ogre starting off with a 17 strength will have a 23 strength due to racial modifiers (or 27 when raging). His AB and damage with a greatsword would be +8 (3d6+9=19.5) or +10 (3d6+12=22.5) when not power attacking or +5 (3d6+15=25.5) or +7 (3d6+18=28.5). On top of the significantly increased damage, the half-ogre also has reach with his attacks, a huge advantage.

Yep, the half ogre does more damage. Not a whole lot more, but more. As it should be really. He did pay for it with a level after all. Anyone can have a reach weapon, but even if you have a 10' reach, 20' reach, or 300' reach you still only get one AOO from that person running into your threatened area. Of course that is also if they dont tumble in, or are able to use terrain, or have reach of their own, or some other mitigating circumstance.

If the human had average hit points and a 14 constitution, his hp total would be 40 on average. The half-ogre starting with a 14 con (raised to 16 by race) would have an average hp total of 34. By the time they reach 10th/9th levels, their hps will be even. After that, you'd expect that half-ogre to have more hit points. As this issue flipflops, the hit point advantage is a push - better for humans early, but better for half-ogres later.


So you are saying it is a wash? good enough. No advantage either way. Of course with the humans extra level they get better rages earlier and so gain a higher con that way as well. Even more flipflop, but more in favor of the nonogre.

AC always favors the half-ogre. The half-ogre gets +4 natural armor, -1 size and -1 from dexterity. This is counterbalanced to an extent by the fact that the half-ogre occupies 4 squares and is thus easier to get at (ie; more foes can attack him at one time - of course, this disadvantage is also an advantage in that it is harder to get around the half-ogre to flank or to get at allies of the half-ogre).

So they gain an extra +2 and take up 4x as much room allowing a much greater number of enemies to attack him? all right. Although whether or not it is harder to flank depends on the enemies. If you have an enemy coming at you from eithe side it is a wash for the human or ogre. If you have them both in front benefit to the ogre, if you have one in front and one on the side it is again a wash. Slightly harder to flank, but also harder for the ogre to manuever properly.

Is it harder to get equipment for a half-ogre? Yes. But, in most games, that is a rather easy problem to beat. Either a PC picks up crafting feats or the PCs find someone that has them and the equipment for the Half-ogre is purchased rather than found. This rarely proves to be more than a minor inconvenience, though a DM can design a game that makes this a larger problem.

So you are saying that the doubling of equipment costs is a minor inconvenience? When you first start out the nonogre will be able to afford at least halfway decent armor and a weapon, plus have some money left over. The ogre will not be able to do that. There goes his bonus to ac. At higher levels the base cost difference doesnt usually amount to much. Unless you are looking for special materials, and then those costs being doubled are definately going to add up.

Saving throws? Half-ogres are slightly behind in all saves due to their LA. They have a stronger fort save, but a weaker will save. Considering most people target melee fighters with will spells, the half-ogre is weaker in this category, but not by a huge amount.

Saving throws, yes. They are behind by one level of barbarian (-1/2 fort, -1/3 ref, -1/3 will), they get a con bonus (+1 fort), they get a dexterity penalty (-1 reflex). In your example above the human has a +4 base fort save and the ogre has a +3 base fort save. Those look equal after the bonus, not stronger for the halfogre. The humans ref base is +1 as is the half ogres, but the halfogre has an extra -1 penalty. The humans base will is +1 as is the half ogres. Looks like the half ogre is behind in saves, yes. This debate seems to be whether or not the half ogre is +1 or +2. Since he is behind here then that is a strike against.

In the end, the half-ogre is far better at doing what melee fighters are supposed to do: Dish out damage and prevent enemies from getting at those behind them. Their disadvantages are too little to account for their benefits. I advise *strongly* against allowing thi race as a +1 LA.

Far better? you have shown that he can do more damage at the levels you picked, sure. But far better? You have not shown that. You simply brush off or ignore their penalties, poor show How about skills? Strangely enough these skills actually matter in combat sometimes, sometimes even out of combat!

Being 1hd behind means that you are more likely to be effected by certain spells at lower levels (if we are going by high and low levels here then sleep effects him for one extra level). You are also one level behind in class benefits. That part seems to escape almost everyones attention. In the example above the human barb has 1 extra rage per day!! So for the first combat the halfogre is better at dealing damage, what about the second? The human is better at listening, survival, intimidating.. lots of skills. From having more skill points and a higher skill rank available, this is not to be forgotten.

Going a couple of levels higher to 6th level barb vs 5th level barb halfogre there is another shift in power. The human has better saves across the board, just got extra trap sense (I can feel the power there.. sarcasm indeed even though this is almost a non-ability it is still there), and a full extra attack! With that extra attack the human has a chance of doing more damage than the halfogre can in a round.

At very high levels (say 20) the human barb just got an extra rage for the day and mighty rage! So that the humans str catches up even more.

Even failing all of the above, whether either side is better or worse very little of it takes into account magic. Sure, polymorph has been decreased in useage right down to only being a melee buff most of the time so it might as well be used.

Human --> troll.. lots of benefits, there are other monsters as well that he could get changed into
Halfogre ---> troll.. not as many benefits, he isnt much better off

With this sort of thing being fairly common what benefit does the halfogre get? He paid a full level to get penalties while the human got the level and the bonuses.

I know that some people feel this spell is overpowered, but as it is core and as written does this very well the point seems clear.

Halfogres suffer from the same problems as halforcs, plus a few more. They are effectively well made for their +1 LA. They are brutally strong, can make good melee combatants, but cant really do anything else. They are either slightly ahead, equal, or behind people of equivalent levels most of the time. Over their entire career they are slightly better than an equivalent fighter type probably, but for what they give up they had better get some bonus.

You could also say that elves make better ranged combatants than dwarves and that this isnt fair. Well sure, every race should have their strengths. Just because this guy has his strengths and some people think that he should be just as bad or worse than someone else who didnt pay the price just seems very odd to me. He paid the price, he is very specialized, let him have his specialty. He isnt even overpowerd for what he does, nothing in any of the posts in this thread have shown him to be too strong for his +1, only that he is slightly better at that than others, and much worse at everything else.

 

[Larcen]

TO: jgsugden and Scion

Since you two are on opposite camps, and both seem real knowledgeable in this, can you do me a favor?

Build me a quick PC based on the rules I posted a little while back.

Scion, you make him an orc.

jgsugden, you make him a half-ogre.

If you guys agree, it could be interesting and I would be most greatful.

 

[Fieari]

Quick question. My only books right now are 3e PHB, DMG, and MM, and these are in electronic form (a friend gave me eTools for christmas, sans physical books). I haven't seen any rules on the subject of monster players looking through these books... where would I be able to find them?

 

[Spatula]

I *strongly* advise against using creatures with a LA greater than +1.

The presence of extra bilities is not the only problem. The 'cost' of these extra abilities is reduced hit dice. The reduced hit dice leads to more situations where your PC dies.

Might be true for some monster races, but it doesn't really apply to the ogre, since its high Con will close the hp gap once it's gained some class levels (as you note later on with the half-ogre). I don't think a simple "never go higher than +1" works - it really depends on the creature. How many racial HD, the HD/LA ratio, the stat adjustments, the special abilities... Take the troll, for example. I don't recall what the troll's LA is, but I'm sure it's higher than +1, but since a troll PC has regeneration the lack of HP isn't as much of an issue.

 

[Scion]

Might be true for some monster races, but it doesn't really apply to the ogre, since its high Con will close the hp gap once it's gained some class levels (as you note later on with the half-ogre). I don't think a simple "never go higher than +1" works - it really depends on the creature. How many racial HD, the HD/LA ratio, the stat adjustments, the special abilities... Take the troll, for example. I don't recall what the troll's LA is, but I'm sure it's higher than +1, but since a troll PC has regeneration the lack of HP isn't as much of an issue.

unfortunately, some abilities, such as the trolls regeneration, are so difficult to apply a real LA to it is isane ;/ Much like the vampires spawn ability as well. If used it could be the end all ability of the universe, if unused it counts for nothing, but somehow the LA must account for this. Regen is another example, though not quite to the same extreme. PC's with this ability will go out of their way to pick up a set of armor with fire and acid resistance 30. At that point they are just about uber how does one balance it in a normal party? If you take away too many levels they are going to do nothing effective at all, not enough and he'll dominate in combat.

the problem with the halfogre to most people seems to be that he is strong. This is not 'end of the world' kindof stuff, but it may go outside of the normal bounds of their campaign. This can be bad. However, in the baseline d&d setting it seems to be more or less ok. Especially with people who arent min/maxing to the point of 1 dimensional characters.

Anyway though, if I get some time tonight I'll try to draw up an orc or something If not perhaps someone else will. Have a good one all!

 

[jgsugden]

Scion: I'm not interested in this subject enough to give it significant time, but I'll answer your issues in brief.

1.) The half-ogre does a lot more damage in my books. I consider 6.5 more points per attack to be a lot. That is more than double specialization!

2.) Reach is useful for more than AoOs. It can be used to negate AoOs by other creatures (as you don't need to move into their threatened area) and effectively increases movement by allowing you to reach targets that are farther away.

3.) Yes, doubling nonmagical item costs is a minor penalty. The first level HOgre can't buy armor as nice as the human barbarian. By the end of the first few adventures he can afford any nonmagical armor that he wants.

4.) Using fractional saving throw bonuses to compare the barbarians, the HOgre gets +1/2 fort, -1&1/3 reflex and -1/3 will. Those are small differences. At high levels, reflex saves lose meaning as hit point totals increase and other resistances to common reflex saving throws (ie; resistance to fire, etc ... ) becomes more meaningful than the saving throws.

5.) I went through the significant disadvantages. I missed mentioning one - the loss of 1 level of class abilities - but that is not too important either. (Did you notice that the HOgre does more damage when not raging that the human does while raging?) I failed to mentiuon a few insignificant disavantages (skills, etc ...) because they don't play a major role in a melee fighter's life.

6.) Yes, comparing 6th level human barbarians to 5th level HOgres is one place where the human shines a little brighter than usual. That happens at 6th, 11th and 16th level. Beyond that, HOgres win out.

From experience, I can tell you that a HOgre PC will outshine any standard raced PC as a melee fighter of equivalent ECL and with an equivalent generation system. I've seen it. It isn't even close.

I encourage any DM to do a few mock battles to test out how it works before allowing a player to choose the race. Build two PCs - a human and a HOgre of the same ECL. Run them through mock battles with the rest of the party. Keep track of how effective each PC is in battle: damage, kills, significant actions in battle, etc ... Try a few mock battles after advancing the party up to a higher power level if you have the time. Then, look at your results and decide if it is even. In other words - do the leg work yourself before using it.

I've said what I have to offer. I hope my insights can be useful to you.

 

[Scion]

1) more damage yes, but is it enough more damage to put up with the rest of the negatives? perhaps

2) reach is very nice sure, but everyone can get it. Most fighter types get it in one way or another or pick up a way to avoid it. If they do neither then generaly they will have a problem at higher levels. Everyone uses tactics if they want to stay alive.

3) At lower levels the doubling means that the ac's fall in line and sometimes even favor the nonogre. That is easy enough to cover my whole point, saying that it is a minor penalty when at these levels it can shift away from you, 'he's the king of ac' means that you are ignoring the point at least imnsho of course

4) since there are a lot of fractions it needs to be said. I could compare at levels where they have the biggest emphasis on my point, you can compare at levels that have the largest on yours. Using the fractions means nearly the same thing at all levels and is easier to compare. some levels they will mean a great deal, others not so much. I am trying to list all of the advantages and disadvantages. Please dont just ignore things because they only matter half of the time, that half of the time happens half of the time

5) you missed noting several, and dismissed others as meaningless even though they do matter. How often do you make listen checks? Nearly every battle while you are sneaking through a dungeon, just about all of the time when you need to notice something. At least that is how it is run in every campaign I've been in.. maybe in some you dont need listen, that is a bit harsh though I would think.

6) so you agree that some levels are better to compare at than others for both sides of the arguement? good then, sounds like it is fairly equal at this one level disparity then

7) and I can tell you from my experience that at +1 they are perfectly fine and balanced.. lol.. hope that helps you in your decision making or whatever.. at least as much as your experience helps me in mine.

In battles against the pc's certain things win out more than others. NPC's are generally not reused, especially when they are made to be hulking brutes.

The whole reason there are LA's is that some powers mean more to pc's than others. NPC's can generaly ignore the whole fact that skills are lower, can ignore the fact that certain saves are worse, can ignore the loss of a hd here and there. Mainly because these things will matter little to it as it isnt meant to overcome these things. PC's are different however, they are expected to meet certain challenges.

You have said that with a human barb vs the halfogre barb that the half ogre will do more damage. That is fine, easily proven, though not true at every level.

You have said that the bonuses out weight the inherant penalties. Perhaps, I am assuming you include the +1 LA in the penalties.

You have also said that the halfogre is just plain better at being the barb than a human.

However, I disagree with at least some of these points. Just because race XXXX is more suited to job YYYY does not mean that race is unbalanced. The halfogre is only good at one thing, by your own admission. So how much better should he be at what he does than someone else who could do any job equally well? or someone who is bad at that job?

This guy is only a fighter type. At the same time not very good at being either a paladin or a ranger. This limits him down to fighter or barbarian.At the end of the day this guy has given up a full level to gain his bonuses, this is no different than someone specializing heavily in one combat trick, being very good at it, and not good at anything else.

With all of that he SHOULD be better at being a fighter type than someone else who has lots of options. But even with that should hanging over his head he still doesnt beat out the other guys by all that much.

So he falls way behind in lots of areas, only has one area he can go into, if he tries he can be very good at this area.. and you are saying that because he is a specialist he should be penalized again? Do you make specialty wizards in your campaign delay their spellcasting like sorcerers? why not? same thing.

Lets look at a level 13 case (chosen at random)
16, 10, 16, 12, 12, 12 = 34 point buy, correct?
human barbarian 13
13d12 + 39 = avg 129
BAB 13
str 19 (+3), dex 10, con 16 (+3), wis 12 (+1), int 12 (+1), cha 12 (+1)
F +8 ((+3)), R +4 ((+0)), W +4 ((+1))
Abilities of a 13th level barb
skill points 96, max ranks 16

halfogre barb 11
11d12 + 44 = 121
BAB 11
str 24 (+6), dex 8 (-1), con 18 (+4), wis 12 (+1), int 10, cha 10
F +7 ((+4)), R+3 ((-1)), W+3 ((+1))
Abilities of a 11th level barb
skill points 56, max ranks 14


the half ogre loses 1 rage/day, +1 trap sense, DR 1/-, 2 points of BAB, 2 hd, two points of reflex save, one point of will save, 2 max ranks in skills, 40 skill points, 1 stat point, 1 feat (from human)

Now this isnt the largest desparity, nor the smallest I would think. But all in all if you are looking for a more rounded character who can stick things out more and has more options you will go with the human. If you are going for someone that can hit harder but takes a hit you go with the halfogre. In this comparison though the halfogre just gives up too much. 40 skill points has to strike someone as being a lot. The extra point of dr plus the extra hp makes the human stay in the fight much longer. Extra rage in a day means that the human is less likely to be caught without one. 2 points of BAB qualifies for feats later, less useful for feats that require bab (power attacking with the two handed weapon catches the human up on damage to at least some degree).

I know people will weight in on both sides. I've given my reasons and I stand behind them for why the half ogre should be +1. Like I've said though, if you feel that he still needs something else to take him down a notch (poor guy) then keep him +1 and give him a single giant racial hd. That has to be punishment enough. Already his specialization has cost him double. In some campaigns it is worth it, in others it would be laughed out of the room.

Notice in the above I didnt even min/max anything. both could be made better or worse, especially in their various specialties. I tried to keep them as interesting and widespread as possible. However, making the human more widespread and easy to use is much easier than the halfogre, he just doesnt have the options.

 

[DM_Matt]

Remember that he is not going to bemaking this HOgre a powerful and efficient combat machine. I believe that a DD build will in the long run be significantly weaker than a fighter

His BAB will suck...DD grants cleric BaB AND he loses a level AND he is getting no bab for his sorc elvel

His sorc level and the bonus spells will be useless. He gets some L1 spells IF he buys a 13 in Cha (remmber, those could go to make a bad dex good instead). what L1 spells will even be useful in th elong run? The only good buff is enlarge, which doesnt work. Charm person wont work when his DC's are so low. Magic Missile for 1d4+1? He's better off carrying a mighty bow or even a bag of rocks. Might not always hit, but he gets iterative attacks and might acutally drop a kobold oce in a while.

DDs also get claw and bite. Those go to waste or else deprive him of the big advantage of power attacking with a two-handed weapon for 2-1 beucase his str bonus is so high that he cna afford to. That and they have crit 20/x2, and cirts are a lot more powerful when you do a lot of damage as it is.

He also needs to spend 8 of his precious skill points in knowledge(Arcana).

Thus, while I am of the opinion that a Hogre is a somewhat powerful +1 but a terrible +2, I must point out taht if hes going DD, he needs other powerful things just to compete as a melee guy.

 

[DM_Matt]

That said, here is an OPTIMIZED Hogre at level 4. (He cant get DD till 6th or even later if you dont pool class skills...remember the skill point requirement). Note, this IS minmaxed to hell. My personal similar HOgre that I played had higher mental stats for RP reasons.

HOgre Barb1/Fighter2

Str: 22
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
AC: 20 (10-1size+2dex+5breastblate+4Nat)
HP: 33 (12+6+6+9)
Speed: 40
Attack: Greatsword +9, DMG 3d6+9 w/ 2for1 power attack, cleave, 3 AOOs/round (AV DMG: 19.5, up to 25.5 with PA)...I also recommend a masterword GS to help that bab up to +10

 

[Scion]

Come to think of it, maybe levels in monk would be better.

It provides some order to its savage behavior, would still be incredibly savage but able to actually deal with the world around it. Go into its on little version or torpur whenever the world gets to be too much or lashes out at anything.. Perhaps some flavor text concentration checks here and there

HalfOgre/dwarf and feral. Going up in monk levels. Lots of flavor, make sure he never uses a weapon, ever. If he cant tear it limb from limb with his hands what is the point?

It would get rid of at least part of the problem people are having with each template, would have a lot of fun flavor times, and would almost be impossible to min/max to sufficient power to make people upset. Just getting it into usefulness would be a bit of a challenge even. But fun!!