Ogres As Characters

[Scion]

Scion, I challenge you to make a straight barbarian/fighter with a core race that is as powerful as this (32 pt buy):

You arent useing core stuff why should I? lol

STR 24, DEX 12, CON 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10

base scorse
Str 16
dex 10
con 16
int 12
wis 14
cha 12

36 point buy? or did I miscount something? If I counted correctly giving yourself 4 more point buy points is not a fair deal

 

[Fedifensor]

36 point buy? or did I miscount something?

Did you add the two stat points to Strength from leveling?

I agree that it's best to stick to core rules for comparison. Of course, since the half-ogre isn't core, I can see why the builds don't, either.

 

[Scion]

lol.. you are a crazy guy fedifensor.

large size is not always a benefit.

targeted dispel works on most everything, not just any such tactics. But if you want to toss around third level spells why not just toss one which will hinder/kill instead? A fireball is almost always a better idea than a targeted dispel at this level. Hit multiple party members for damage, enough to kill off a couple of them, the halfogre has a lower reflex save and a lower hp number. He might just die from it, not likely, but possible. At higher levels items are easy enough, a few thousand in order to have the spell whenever you want it is chump change.

Really guys This guy is strong, that is what he is designed to be. But is he really that great? he has bonuses and penalties. At +1 LA he is already behind in several ways. He is only good at fighting. Even if he is slightly better in combat (and at best that is what he is, slightly) then that is deserved by being so much worse at everything else. Skills? They are gone, not only is he behind by a rank, and a full level of skill points, he also has that hit to int. Other characters without the LA will be a full level ahead in class abilities. They will get extra attacks sooner, qualify for feats sooner, get better saves sooner, get ability increases sooner. At +1 he can hold his own, even have his time in the sun. At +2 he'll have to be min/maxed out the wazzo to ever have a chance to shine.

 

[Scion]

Did you add the two stat points to Strength from leveling?

I agree that it's best to stick to core rules for comparison. Of course, since the half-ogre isn't core, I can see why the builds don't, either.

Yeah I did, that is why he started with a 16.. +6 from race, +2 from level = 24

Edit: halfogre isnt core, weapon master isnt core, I am surprised he didnt put on large and in charge

 

[jgsugden]

Let's just start off by being honest:

If you're going to play a half-ogre, you're pretty much limited to being a melee fighter. They make lousy missile weapons specialists and even worse spellcasters. So, we're only interested in their fighting ability in melee combat.

Let's compare a 4th level human barbarian with a 3rd level half-ogre barbarian. They have the same ECL, so they should be equivalent.

If the human fighter started off with a 17 strength, his strength would now be 18 (or 22 when raging). His AB and damage with a greatsword would be +8 (2d6+6=13 average) or +10 (2d6+9=16). If power attacking fully, this goes to +4 (2d6+12=19) or +6 (2d6+15=22).

The half-ogre starting off with a 17 strength will have a 23 strength due to racial modifiers (or 27 when raging). His AB and damage with a greatsword would be +8 (3d6+9=19.5) or +10 (3d6+12=22.5) when not power attacking or +5 (3d6+15=25.5) or +7 (3d6+18=28.5). On top of the significantly increased damage, the half-ogre also has reach with his attacks, a huge advantage.

If the human had average hit points and a 14 constitution, his hp total would be 40 on average. The half-ogre starting with a 14 con (raised to 16 by race) would have an average hp total of 34. By the time they reach 10th/9th levels, their hps will be even. After that, you'd expect that half-ogre to have more hit points. As this issue flipflops, the hit point advantage is a push - better for humans early, but better for half-ogres later.

AC always favors the half-ogre. The half-ogre gets +4 natural armor, -1 size and -1 from dexterity. This is counterbalanced to an extent by the fact that the half-ogre occupies 4 squares and is thus easier to get at (ie; more foes can attack him at one time - of course, this disadvantage is also an advantage in that it is harder to get around the half-ogre to flank or to get at allies of the half-ogre).

Is it harder to get equipment for a half-ogre? Yes. But, in most games, that is a rather easy problem to beat. Either a PC picks up crafting feats or the PCs find someone that has them and the equipment for the Half-ogre is purchased rather than found. This rarely proves to be more than a minor inconvenience, though a DM can design a game that makes this a larger problem.

Saving throws? Half-ogres are slightly behind in all saves due to their LA. They have a stronger fort save, but a weaker will save. Considering most people target melee fighters with will spells, the half-ogre is weaker in this category, but not by a huge amount.

In the end, the half-ogre is far better at doing what melee fighters are supposed to do: Dish out damage and prevent enemies from getting at those behind them. Their disadvantages are too little to account for their benefits. I advise *strongly* against allowing thi race as a +1 LA.

 

[Larcen]

*double post*

 

[Larcen]

In order to make the lives of the number-crunchers among you any easier...here are the beginnings of what I have in mind at this point:

4th level character, 32 point buy.

Classes: Barbarian1/Sorcerer1 (or Bard1)/Dragon Disciple 2 (or 1, depending on race)

Race: half-orc or orc or half-ogre

Feats: Power attack? Improved Trip?

Weapons: Greatword? Spiked Chain?

For the rest, I can only stick to core books and the FR book.

Note that the arcane level is to fulfill the Dragon Disciple requirement.

I thinking the best scenario is an orc bar1/sor1/dd2. What's cool is that the sorcerer level give him Enlarge and the DD levels from that point on will offset the one low sorcerer hitdie and the orc stat penalties.

Thanks for any help!

[EDIT] I just realized that the prereqs for Improved Trip make this a bad choice for him, for now. Maybe Improved Bull Rush or Cleave or Combat Reflexes? I really wish I had more experience building melee characters.

 

[gfunk]

Larcen, enlarge person only works on humanoids. Half-ogres are giants.

 

[Larcen]

Larcen, enlarge person only works on humanoids. Half-ogres are giants.

Note I listed two other race choices, orc and half-orc. I am leaning towards a straight orc at this point.

 

[Fedifensor]

"targeted dispel works on most everything, not just any such tactics. "

True. A non-targeted dispel can also work on the entire group. I chose a targeted because the main fighter usually gets most of the enhancing spells.

"But if you want to toss around third level spells why not just toss one which will hinder/kill instead? A fireball is almost always a better idea than a targeted dispel at this level."

Actually, my comments weren't level-specific. And Disarm works at any level. Fail it once, and your fighter loses his weapon. Even if he picks it back up, he now does less damage AND gives a penalty to hit because of the size difference. BTW, about half the players in my game are running around with 10+ points of fire resistance...

"Even if he is slightly better in combat (and at best that is what he is, slightly) then that is deserved by being so much worse at everything else."

90% of D&D is combat by default - look at the modules produced by WotC if you don't believe me. Besides, it's not like a 10 Int human fighter is going to have a lot of skills. His selection is pitiful, so even with 2 skill points per level he's going to have to cross-class for anything useful.

The most powerful characters focus on a concept, and do what they do extremely well. Wizards stay single-classed to get higher-level spells quickly, Fighters focus on one weapon to take advantage of Weapon Specialization, etc. The half-ogre is absolutely awesome at its speciality, getting innate abilities that require a significant amount of magic to equal. +4 natural armor is equal to an Amulet of Natural Armor +4 (and they stack!). Reach is equivalent to a persistant Enlarge Person without the disadvantages.

In short, the half-ogre more than justifies a +2 ECL. If you disagree with that, your problem is with the ECL system as a whole. Most ECL +1 creatures get a rather trivial benefit for their level adjustment. Half-Ogres are not only better than other +1 ECL creatures, they often beat out +2 ECL templates in effectiveness.