Ogres As Characters

[Larcen]

No, his comparison shows that the full ogre sucks for a normal party. You dont get enough bang for the buck.

The halfogre template has been argued back and forth with people on both sides. I have seen it in action and it seems fine, strong yes, but penalties galore as well.

Whatever you believe, on either side, isnt a huge issue though. (that is a you to most everyone here) It is only what his dm thinks. Hopefully he'll be able to make a balanced determination for his campaign rather than a harsh, jump to the throat, that many have done about this template and all sorts of other things in d&d.

I agree Scion, which is why I sent my DM this thread.

 

[Larcen]

Pick up Savage Species

Create a Half-ogre/human.

Choose the feral template.

Take barbarian levels.

Get 'Roll With It' at all opportunities.

Make up a really cool background story.

Enjoy the strange monstrosity that you have created

Say, can someone briefly described what "Roll With It" is? I am curious.

 

[Scion]

It gives a small amount of damage reduction that stacks with other damage reduction. The prereq's are rough, but the halfogre/human that I said above could qualify at first level.

Edit: it is a feat, in case I didnt make that clear So even at really high levels it is very difficult to have a ton of DR. I would recommend putting all of your feats into it. With the barb levels you will be the ultimate wade-into-hordes-of-minions guy!

 

[gfunk]

The halfogre template has been argued back and forth with people on both sides. I have seen it in action and it seems fine, strong yes, but penalties galore as well.

Other than problems inherent in any fighter or barbarian-type character, what are the "penalites galore?"

 

[Fedifensor]

The halfogre template has been argued back and forth with people on both sides. I have seen it in action and it seems fine, strong yes, but penalties galore as well.

I've had a half-ogre in my home game for nearly a year now, using a +2 level adjustment. It seems to work pretty well - the half-ogre can hit about as well as the group's human weapon master, but does a LOT more damage. Even when the weapon master gets an extra attack next level, the half-ogre will be the better fighter-type. That +4 natural armor makes a big difference in AC, and the strength bonus really ramps up the damage (especially when using a two-handed weapon). The half-ogre has also avoided paralysis more than once because she can't be targeted with Hold Person.

However, the biggest advantage is reach. Fortunately, the player of the half-ogre prefers simple, easy to remember feats like Cleave. If she had taken Large and In Charge in combination with Combat Reflexes, she'd be a nightmare in combat against any Medium-size foe.

If I were your GM, I'd bump the half-ogre template up to +2 in a second. It'd be rougher on you at low-levels, but the becomes minor by 10th level.

 

[Scion]

Other than problems inherent in any fighter or barbarian-type character, what are the "penalites galore?"

penalties? all right.

-2 dex. that is one less ac, reflex save, initiative, dex based skills.
-2 int. less skill points, severe blow if you want to be a wizard
-2 cha. penalty to charisma based skills, severe blow if you want to be a sorcerer

Large size: -1 to hit, -1 ac, equipment costs more, hard to fit into certain areas (dungeons anyone?)

Giant blood: how often is this a good thing? pretty much never.

Favored class barb: puts him directly into his fighting role

level adjustment: +1, now this is a huge hit, truely.

His benefits help to fill in some of these slots. However, generally speaking he is going to have a low ac pretty much all of the time, opening himself to being hit more often and power attacked. Especially at higher levels.

In any event, I can do an actual acid test on here if you like. However there are several done elsewhere. That LA is a very big hit, especially for Barbs. Part of the time you are a full attack behind, behind in saves, behind in hd and hp, behind in skill points (first from a lower int and then from a whole hd), etc.

I am not saying it isnt powerful, I am merely stating that it is fine as a +1. Not a lot of templates/races can say that. This is one that was actually done correctly. You have a real choice, both choices are good in some ways, but neither is a complete no brainer. As it should be. Options, not limitations.. and not options that would be moronic to choose in most circumstances.

 

[Scion]

If I were your GM, I'd bump the half-ogre template up to +2 in a second. It'd be rougher on you at low-levels, but the becomes minor by 10th level.

I've seen them in play at +1 and it was fine as well. So obviously it can be ok either way.

If your dm is going to make it +2 then at least convince him to make it +1 with one racial hd. To go any worse than that (like the +2) is just too painful to comprehend

 

[Scion]

Sorry to post three times in a row, they are all different ideas, and I usually only edit to modify ideas or correct typos.. not to insert entirely new points.

Just found this about the halfogre, seems like another point of view may help.

So you do 1 point more damage from having a bigger strength, and 2 more points of damage from using a bigger weapon. You just multiclassed into a level to get zero BAB, zero save bonuses, zero hit points, zero skill points, zero skill rank increases, and 3 points of melee damage.

The Orc can get the same kind of melee damage boost by taking a Rogue (sneak attack, sometimes it even adds to ranged combat) level and gets saves, special abilities, hit points, and a whole rack of skills.

Half Ogres are mathematically slightly weak when compared to Orcs. Orcs are generally agreed to be on the weak end of playable races. Half Ogres are playable - but only just. If they were any weaker they'd be unbalanced in the low power direction.

Pretty much everything in Savage Species works like that.

 

[Fedifensor]

"-2 dex. that is one less ac, reflex save, initiative, dex based skills."

More than counteracted by the Strength bonus. And with a net +2 bonus in stats, they can offset the Dexterity penalty.

"-2 int. less skill points, severe blow if you want to be a wizard"

You don't choose a half-ogre template to debate philosophy or be a brainy wizard. If you're worried about skills, use the net +2 stat points in Intelligence instead of Dexterity.

"-2 cha. penalty to charisma based skills, severe blow if you want to be a sorcerer"

Likewise, you don't pick a half-ogre template to win people over with your stunning personality. Half-orcs get -2 to both Int and Cha to get a lousy +2 to Strength...this is hardly worth complaining about.

"Large size: -1 to hit, -1 ac, equipment costs more, hard to fit into certain areas (dungeons anyone?)"

All that is more than offset by greater damage (larger weapons do more damage than normal-size ones) and reach. Not to mention the +4 natural armor bonus to offset the trivial -1 AC penalty. Most dungeon passages are 10 feet wide, and the half-ogre can reach over companions to attack (thus increasing the number of PC's on the front line of combat). Even taking a -4 AC from "squeezing" through a 5-foot space, they only have a net -1 AC thanks to the natural armor bonus.

"Giant blood: how often is this a good thing? pretty much never."

The player of the half-ogre in my campaign is very glad for her immunities to Charm Person and Hold Person. The equivalent monster-affecting spells are 3 levels higher.

"Favored class barb: puts him directly into his fighting role"

No more so than a half-orc (or most demihumans, actually). And unless you prefer multiclassing, irrelevant.

"level adjustment: +1, now this is a huge hit, truely."

At 1st level, yes. By 5th, it's a trivial adjustment.

For reference, here's a link to the half-ogre in my campaign. It's heavy on the heroism (players started with 36 points to assign to stats). The latest writeup on the website shows her at 8th level (10th level equivalent). She averages 21 points of damage per swing...and hasn't even raised Strength since character creation.

http://www.peakpeak.com/~fedifensor/games/dnd3e/umfang.htm

 

[DM_Matt]

Remember that large size is a big asset not just to you but to the party in general if you have a tactically-minded group. My group enjoyed having the Ogre/2 around becuase he was so good at setting up flanking and because they liked setting themselves up to make enemies provoke AOOs from his largeness.

The optimal build, btw, is to go more fighter than barb, becuase there are a lot of feats that work well for very high str and large creatures. Get Power Attack and weild a large greatswrod. If you can swing a decent dex, even a 12 or a 14, get Combat Reflexes. Large and In Charge (Sword&Fist, Draconomicon) and Hold the Line (Srow &Fist, Complete Warrior) are also great ways to take advantage of your reach. When I played on, I went Barab1 then Fighter the rest of the way.

BTW, GFunk:
Giant blood makes you immune to Charm/Dominate person in return for not being able to be Enlarged. With the crappy will save that the char would have, its worth it.

The "Barely-Playable" thing is absurd, btw, beucase it ignores Natural Armor, the benefits of Giant Blood, and Large size.