Ogres As Characters

[Larcen]

You know, I usually play spellcasters so usually I would never consider taking a race that makes you "lose" levels. Now that I am thinking of taking a break from spellcasters with this character, I am feeling less restricted and figuring, what the heck, the STR benefits alone would offet anything lost by losing a level or two of fighter. Probably.

If you take a race that gives you bonuses in melee stats does it really hurt that much to give up a level or two of fighter or barbarian to get it?

Call me crazy but I always thought that losing melee class levels doesn't hurt as much as losing spellcaster class levels. Which it why multiclassing spellcasters hurt so much. I would rather lose a +1 to BAB than a Fireball. But then, like I said, I usually have a spellcasting mentality. To me, fighters levels just give you more of the same, whereas spellcaster levels give you new and interesting things to do. By converting a level of fighter into an unusual race, I have made that "level" more interesting, see?

I guess I don't really know what my point was in all that other than to demonstrate my confusion over taking the ECL plunge for my new melee character.

(Man, when I started this thread I was so clear on what I wanted, but not anymore. )

 

[Fedifensor]

So you do 1 point more damage from having a bigger strength, and 2 more points of damage from using a bigger weapon. You just multiclassed into a level to get zero BAB, zero save bonuses, zero hit points, zero skill points, zero skill rank increases, and 3 points of melee damage.

Greatsword = 2d6. Large-size Greatsword = 3d6. Damage increase is 3.5 points. You get +6 Strength and +2 Constitution, at the cost of -2 in 3 stats...two of which are dump-stats for most fighter-types. At the cost of -1 AC, 1 skill point/level and -1 on Charisma-based skills, you get +3 to hit, +8(!) to damage (3.5 from weapon size increase + 4.5 for Strength) and +1 HP/level. Even when you lose 1 level in the process, it's a great trade to the point of being unbalanced. We haven't even brought up the power of reach or the natural armor bonus, both of which easily push the half-ogre into +2 ECL territory.

Look at other +1 ECL races for comparison. The half-ogre simply blows them out of the water. Sure, it's not the best choice for a wizard or sorcerer, but neither is a half-orc.

 

[Scion]

Firstly, yes, half-orcs suck. A lot.

HalfOrc
+2 str, -2 int, -2 cha
darkvision
orcblood
favored class barb

Lets look at the orc shall we?

Orc
+4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Darkvision 60 ft.
Light Sensitivity: orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Favored class: Barbarian
LA +0
(copied from a previous post)

now the halfogre
+6 str, -2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha
Large
Darkvision
natural armor +4
giant blood
favored class barb
LA +1

All in all a pretty decent comparison I suppose. The halforc sucks a lot. A whole lot. The orc is a definite improvement in some ways but worse in others. The next step up to halfogre has a few extra perks which are nice, but come at the incredible cost of a level. As the quote I found above, it would be easy enough for the orc to simply take an extra level of something to catch up in most ways, surpass in some, and stay behind in a few others. Seems pretty fair to me.

Of course the halforcs still need a boost. I usually give them a few things in my campaigns anyway to make them useful and flavorful.

Oh, and about the 'immunity to charm person and hold person'. That is all well and good. However it only matters at all for a few levels at most, plus you are 'immune' to certain spells that would be a benefit to you. Feels like a wash more or less, slightly in favor of the halfogre early on, and slightly against once people start tossing the next step up spells (and at this point the lower saves of charm person and such make them unuseable anyway. being immune to something that isnt used isnt much of a bonus)

 

[gfunk]

I agree with Fedifensor. If you take a half-ogre and give him a spiked chain, then he gets 20' reach per 3.5 rules. In every way superior in melee combat to a human or half-orc.

 

[Darklone]

Force Halfogre players to take 2 levels as giant, then it's balanced.

 

[gfunk]

Scion, I challenge you to make a straight barbarian/fighter with a core race that is as powerful as this (32 pt buy):

Half-Ogre Figher 6/Exotic Weapon Master 2 (Level 9 ECL)
80 hps (9d10+36)

26 AC (full plate +2, ring of prot. +1, amulet of N.A. +1, Dex, N.A., -1 size)

Large size, 20’ reach

+17/+12 to hit (+15/+15/+10 with flurry of strikes)

2d6+14 damage per hit (adamantine spiked chain +2)

14/5/8 Fort/Ref/Will

STR 24, DEX 12, CON 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10

Skills: Intimidate +11 (+15 against man-sized), Craft Weaponsmith +3, Swim +5 (+15-10 for armor)

Feats: Exotic Weapon, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Iron Will, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave

Exotic weapon Master Abilities: Flurry of Strikes (flurry of blows/rapid shot for spiked chain) and Trip Attack (+2 on STR check to trip with chain)

-----------------------------------------------------------

The reach alone makes this a lethally powerful combination.

 

[gfunk]

Force Halfogre players to take 2 levels as giant, then it's balanced.

Of all the solutions I've seen, I think this is the best one.

 

[Scion]

Of course since most games have a balanced group, or should have, having a enlarge person cast on your party fighter during combat is a fairly low requirement. At higher levels you can have an item that does this or better fairly easily.

Now, since a simple 1st level spell can effectively give your fighter type a large creature with +2 str and -2 dex what sort of benefit does the half ogre really have? Effectively he has the spell cast on him all of the time, but the fighter could spend a fairly small amount of money in order to have it on himself as well.

Look at the comparison between the halforc, orc, and halfogre. That is a pretty good one there.

At +2 you are missing out on 2 BAB, 2 max skill ranks, 1 point in good saves, 2/3 points in bad saves, 2 hd, 2/3 of a feat, half of a stat point, 2 levels of abilities.

In any event, no matter how good or bad the halfogre is at +1 he is effectively a nobody at +2. Having to choose between a strong +1 or weak +2 I'll go for the +1 in my campaign anyday.

comparing it to other incredibly horrible +1's is just wrong though. Just becuase they suck doesnt mean that all +1 LA's should.

 

[Larcen]

Scion, I challenge you to make a straight barbarian/fighter with a core race that is as powerful as this...

If all this were core, I would say you just built my new PC right there...

 

[Fedifensor]

Of course since most games have a balanced group, or should have, having a enlarge person cast on your party fighter during combat is a fairly low requirement. At higher levels you can have an item that does this or better fairly easily.

Man, I'd love fighting your group...

Targeted Dispel Magic
Disarm (items return to their normal size after leaving the creature's possession)

Not to mention the things the Enlarged fighter lacks (an extra +4 Strength and +4 natural armor).

Also, I wonder what human would want to be permanently Enlarged...well, at least for the whole body.