Oh noes .. more Daggermaster cheese? (Warlock)

[Danceofmasks]

Well .. err .. I do not agree with this ruling, but ...
According to custserv, if a Warlock uses a wand of dreadful word, all his warlock powers have the fear keyword.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

As for "DM won't allow that" or whatever, hey .. there's a homebrew forum around the corner.

I'm here to discuss the rules.
The whole point of exercises like this is to find broken stuff.
By definition, if something is broken, it needs fixing.
One of the functions of rules forums are for discussing and refining understanding of cases so we can get WoTC to issue effective and sensible errata kthx.

I completely agree with everything you've said. But where the rules fail us (and this is but one example), the DM has to make a judgment call.

If we're lucky, in the future this will be fixed. Sometimes, though, we don't get errata for problem rules. If that is the case, then the intent of the rule is just as important, if not moreso in these situations.

As I said earlier, I think this works if a warlock power has the *Weapon keyword. Why? Two main reasons, I think. While a dagger is a necessary component for gaining the Daggermaster's critical effect, it is not a sufficient one. By that I mean, you've got to also be attacking with it; in other words, using a power or attack that has the Weapon keyword. I also think that while a pact blade can be both a dagger and an implement, it does not necessarily act in both capacities simultaneously. Most of the time it's one or the other. Either you use it to stab someone, or you channel a spell through it. Most of the time, you are using it as either a Weapon or an Implement. The crit chance increase is a feature of using the dagger as a Weapon, and therefore should not apply when it is used as an Implement.

I think that's a pretty logical explanation of my ruling, rather than a simple "I don't like it cuz it's cheesey!" or whatever variation you prefer. The fact of the matter is, players find new an interesting ways to work the rules all the time. I as a DM need to be ready to respond to those interpretations, and can't always wait for Wizards to make that decision for me.

 

[Keenath]

Well .. err .. I do not agree with this ruling, but ...
According to custserv, if a Warlock uses a wand of dreadful word, all his warlock powers have the fear keyword.

Bzuh?

Let me see. PHB says:
"...magic item powers often have keywords that indicate their damage or effect types. When you use a magic item as part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords of the item's power and the other power all apply."

Wow. Uh. That's weird. I mean, I get that a flaming longsword makes all your fighter's attacks gain the Fire keyword, but that text implies that any Implement power a wizard uses has the Thunder keyword if he has a Thunderwave Staff... or, as you said, that a Wand of Icy Rays puts the Cold keyword onto your fireballs, which makes no sense, or a Wand of Dreadful Word applies Fear to everything you do.

I don't like this whole thing of adding keywords all over the place. It's one thing if you want to say that a Flaming sword that uses its free power to turn into fire will then add the fire keyword to all your Weapon powers, but... this rule seems bent.

 

[Regicide]

By that reading of the rules I could "use a dagger" in my off-hand and crit with the sword in my main.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Makes sense. With 4E being based on WoW it was inevitable that warlocks would be overpowered.

 

[FadedC]

Daggermaster doesn't say "attack with a dagger". It just says "You score critical hits with a dagger on a roll of 18-20". And, anyway, you ARE using the dagger to attack with - that's what an Implement is.

I think by the very definition, you can't score a critical hit with a dagger unless you attack with a dagger.

 

[ozziewolf]

This summarizes the whole issue.

Posted: 12:48 a.m. by Goku1440 I found an awesome loophole! On page 242 it says "Add oregano to taste!" It doesn't say how much oregano, or what sort of taste! You can add as much oregano as you want! I'm going to make my friends eat infinite oregano and they'll have to do it because the recipe says so!

http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/commentary/alttext/2008/06/alttext_0618

 

[Fanaelialae]

Well .. err .. I do not agree with this ruling, but ...
According to custserv, if a Warlock uses a wand of dreadful word, all his warlock powers have the fear keyword.

Custserv doesn't exactly have a perfect track record, so I'd take that with a grain of salt.

My interpretation of the rule on PH pg 226 is that the keywords apply while you are using that power.

On that same page it mentions a paladin using a flaming sword to add the fire keyword to a radiant weapon attack. If you look at Flaming Weapon on pg 234, it has a power (at will - free action) that adds the fire keyword to an attack (and converts the damage to fire). Now you could read it to mean that whenever you wield a flaming sword it grants the fire keyword (even when "off"), but IMO, the RAI say you are obviously only meant to add that keyword when the power is "on".

Hence, in order for a Doomsayer to benefit from the fear keyword on a rod or wand, you'd have to be using the fear power in the item (typically a daily) or have a rod that has a constant / at-will fear power that can be used in conjunction with your class powers (similar to how a flaming sword complements melee weapon attacks while "on"). I couldn't find any such items in the PH from a quick read, though that certainly doesn't preclude their addition in future supplements.

 

[Xorn]

This is a very interesting discussion and being a DM, I'm curious about the ruling other DMs would make on this as well.

Reading the Pact Blade magic item, under "Special" it says you don't get your weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll when using it as an implement. That to me says you're not using it as a Weapon and therefore not doing weapon damage, just the spell damage.

On the other hand, if we look at this another way where "Specific Beats General" ... the general rule is an implement and you use an implement to cast spells. The specific rule is "Daggermasters" score a critical with daggers on a 18-20 and would therefore trump the implement rule.

What do you all think?

Dizlag

I would tell them that they aren't using a power with the Weapon keyword, so anything gained by a weapon they are wielding (including weapon feats) would not apply to the attack.

If they argued, a meteor shaped like a flacid penis would fall from the sky and crush their head before cracking open and covering them in lava. They would die, and the matter would be solved. I might call them a munchkin, too.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I think it's a lot of ado about twisting the meanings of words to achieve a facetious result.

As a DM, I say no and move on. This is exactly the kind of thing that brew up a 100+ post thread but is a non-issue at the table.