Oh noes .. more Daggermaster cheese? (Warlock)

[Danceofmasks]

Well, Legacy of the Green Regent tried to avoid that whole disgruntled thing by allowing respec'ing (of everything including equipment), and then their changes of rules on the fly doesn't result in a riot.
(As well as being an easy method of allowing players to incorporate new material)
With the consequence of players bring the most up-to-date rorty combos to conventions, and pulling stuff that literally made some GMs cry.

We all know that with every new source there's going to be broken stuff.

But ... I think it's not too crazy to have a month's probation for a new book while as many sensible errata as possible are hashed out.

Players have this tendency to be upset when you allow something, then take it away.
Hence the rules need to be robust and consistent across the board.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Here is the relavent text

"A warlock wielding a magic rod or wand can use its enhancement bonus to the attack and damage rolls if warlock powers as well as warlock paragon path powers that have the implement keyword"

"A pact blade[...] can also be used as an implement[for those powers]"

It does not say that you get all the properties of the weapon applied to the attack, it does not say you get proficiency bonuses to attack it does not say you get high critical, versatile damage bonuses, damage die, or other properties.

I.E. unless there is a "weapon" keyword you aren't "using the weapon" you're "channeling arcane power through the weapon"

That is incorrect according to customer service .. you have to wield an implement to gain any benefit from it.
You are attacking with your wand if you cast a magic missile from it.

Bring it up with them.

 

[Zurai]

You mean all one of them?

I count 5 (Holy Avenger, three of the holy symbols, and one of the rods),

I.E. unless there is a "weapon" keyword you aren't "using the weapon" you're "channeling arcane power through the weapon"

The wording on several of the implements disagrees with you.

Use this power when using this symbol to attack with a power that has the Radiant keyword.

Use this power when you hit with an attack using this holy symbol.

When you use this symbol to deliver an effect that a save can end ...

A holy avenger deals an extra 1d10 radiant damage when the power you use to make the attack has the Radiant keyword.

When you hit a creature that has maximum hit points with an attack using this rod, deal 1d8 extra damage.

Either none of those items function, or you're wrong.

 

[Andor]

You do not gain extra critical range when using a weapon as an implement. You are using a spell through the implement and not using the weapon. Just as you do not receive proficiency bonuses if you are proficient with a weapon when using it as an implement you do not receive any other bonuses dependant on making an attack when using and implement.

When using an item as an implement you only gain the ability to add its +'s to damage and attack. And that is it.

It is true that you don't add the proficiency bonus. But only because that rule is specifically stated on page 275 in a sidebar. *rolls eyes* There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that any other feats or class abilities don't apply.

The general case always apply unless a more specific rule cancels it.

The general case is that when using anything is that all feats and abilities and keywords that apply to use of that item apply to the power as well.

For proficiency bonuses only, a more specific rule states that they only apply if the 'weapon' keyword is present in the power. (And note that they would apply if any power had both the weapon and implement keywords.)

Since no specific rules removes the dagger masters expanded crit range if it is being used with the implement keyword instead of the weapon keyword then RAW the expanded crit range applies.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Thanks for the p275 reference.

 

[FadedC]

Well, Legacy of the Green Regent tried to avoid that whole disgruntled thing by allowing respec'ing (of everything including equipment), and then their changes of rules on the fly doesn't result in a riot.
(As well as being an easy method of allowing players to incorporate new material)
With the consequence of players bring the most up-to-date rorty combos to conventions, and pulling stuff that literally made some GMs cry.

We all know that with every new source there's going to be broken stuff.

But ... I think it's not too crazy to have a month's probation for a new book while as many sensible errata as possible are hashed out.

Players have this tendency to be upset when you allow something, then take it away.
Hence the rules need to be robust and consistent across the board.

At least at the time I was playing LG (the first 4 years or so), they did have a probationary period on all new books. Sometimes it lasted more then a month too. Sadly it didn't stop broken things from being allowed. Plus there is often a difference between things that are broken when you use them as intended (sounds like the monks belt was one of these), and things that are broken when they used in a way clearly against the intent (like the warlock daggermaster thing). The second is much harder to catch because you never know what bizarre loopholes people will come up with.

Given the choice between having everyone unhappy because the game is horribly balanced, or annoying a few people who have horribly balanced characters, I'll sadly choose the second. Particularly when people are knowingly doing something cheesey like playing a warlock daggermaster .

 

[Goumindong]

I count 5 (Holy Avenger, three of the holy symbols, and one of the rods),



The wording on several of the implements disagrees with you.



Either none of those items function, or you're wrong.

Thank you for proving my point, read them again, you're attacking with a power, not the implement. You're using the implement with the power.

Also:
Wielding =/= attacking with

 

[Incendax]

There is nothing wrong with a Warlock using Daggermaster and a Pact Blade to get the bonus. Zurai has several effective reasons why, and customer service (for all their failings) does back it up as well.

Here is what he loses to gain that benefit:
Multiclass feats expended in the striker role (as opposed to more beneficial ones).
If there is no dex investment, he LOSES 1 Encounter Power and 1 Daily Power.
If there is high dex investment, he LOSES special effects from high Intelligence.

And just discussing fluff, there's no reason why the warlock couldn't be 'striking' with his dagger, shaping darkness into blades and launching them, or any number of other very thematically appropriate dagger-like effects.

To be fair, I am equally irate that Wizard of the Spiral Tower requires you to be specialized to gain the benefit of the implement. That was a perfectly good opportunity to support the Gish role.

 

[Incendax]

Also:
Wielding =/= attacking with

So a rogue CAN wield a dagger in his offhand and get +1 to attack with a short sword in his main hand?

So a warlock CAN wield a rod in either hand and get the benefit of both properties at once?

Just being sure of your stance, here.

 

[Zurai]

Thank you for proving my point, read them again, you're attacking with a power, not the implement. You're using the implement with the power.

I don't mean to be rude here. Please forgive me if this comes out wrong - any regular here will tell you that my Diplomacy skill rating is in the negative.

Are you a native English speaker/reader?

"When you attack with this symbol" is a pretty clear indicator, to a native English speaker, that yes, you do attack with implements. I can't imagine that someone who is totally fluent with the language could argue that "attack with this symbol" means you aren't attacking with the symbol. If it's not your native language, it's much more understandable, but I'd suggest that getting into arguments on fine points of language isn't the best of ideas.

Again, I very sincerely do not mean that to be insulting.