Oh noes .. more Daggermaster cheese? (Warlock)

[Goumindong]

Ok, I started this thread with a head-palm. Now I'm head-desking.
Start here.


Daggermaster's Action (11th level): You can spend an action point to reroll an attack roll or damage roll you made using a dagger, instead of taking an extra action.


I just so happen to be using my dagger as an implement.

You are using a power, the use of the dagger as an implement modifies the power.

You are not using a dagger to attack, there is no weapon keyword.

 

[Danceofmasks]

The ability does not require me to use a dagger to attack.
It allows me to reroll an attack roll while using a dagger.

 

[Goumindong]

The ability does not require me to use a dagger to attack.
It allows me to reroll an attack roll while using a dagger.

an attack roll or damage roll you made using a dagger

Not "an attack roll or damage roll you made while using a dagger[in some other manner]"

"an attack roll or damage roll you made using a dagger"

So yea, it kinda does require you to use the dagger to attack.

 

[Zurai]

The rules really don't separate Implements and Weapons nearly as much as people are suggesting. They both fall under the category of Accessories, and the PHB says that Accessories "identify items used with a power". No mention is made in either the subsequent Implement or Weapon heading of one being used to attack with a power while the other is only used to enhance a power. The only difference between the two is that weapons provide Proficiency bonuses to attack rolls, and they're used by different keywords. That's it. There's no mechanical difference in the rules between how you use an Implement and how you use a Weapon when you're using a power.

 

[Goumindong]

The rules really don't separate Implements and Weapons nearly as much as people are suggesting. They both fall under the category of Accessories, and the PHB says that Accessories "identify items used with a power". No mention is made in either the subsequent Implement or Weapon heading of one being used to attack with a power while the other is only used to enhance a power. The only difference between the two is that weapons provide Proficiency bonuses to attack rolls, and they're used by different keywords. That's it. There's no mechanical difference in the rules between how you use an Implement and how you use a Weapon when you're using a power.

except when the rules define how powers are effected by implements and weapons and when they define what exactly an implement does to a power.

 

[Zurai]

except when the rules define how powers are effected by implements and weapons and when they define what exactly an implement does to a power.

Except no. They DON'T define those things any differently than they define how powers are affected by weapons and what weapons do to powers. Actually, the Implement entry is entirely fluff. The Weapon entry just says weapons define the reach or range of a power it's used with. It's the Accessories entry that defines how Weapons and Implements modify powers, and they both use identical rules for doing so.

 

[Danceofmasks]

No. They do not.
Feats make specific differentiation if they make statements such as "melee weapon attack"
Proficiencies are an exception in a sidebar on p275.
In every other instance, including said sidebar, you wield an implement if you're using a power with the implement keyword, and you wield a weapon if you're using a power with the weapon keyword. That is all.

edit: ninja'ed

 

[Goumindong]

No, you need to re-read page 56, 62, 131, 157

275 only mentions the exception when discussing bonus stacking as an aside, it is not the reference.

 

[Zurai]

No, you need to re-read page 56, 62, 131, 157

275 only mentions the exception when discussing power stacking as an aside, it is not the reference.

pg56: No references to differences between implements and weapons, except that weapons define the range of Weapon powers.
pg62: A restatement of pg55 "Accessories".
pg131: A restatement of pg55 "Accessories".
pg157: A restatement of pg55 "Accessories".

What am I supposed to be seeing?

 

[Andor]

Magic weapons and implements grant their enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls only when you use powers delivered through the weapon or the implement (or directly from the weapon or implement, for items that have attack powers.)
For example a fighter's attack powers are delivered through a weapon, so he or she adds the magic weapon's enhancment bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. A wizard's attack powers are delivered through an implement (orb, staff, or wand), so he or she adds an implement's enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls with those powers.

I fail to see how the rules could possibly be any clearer. An attack power is delivered through an implement in exactly the same way that it is delivered through a weapon.

Therefore any features, abilities, feats or whatever that apply to the use of an item as a weapon also apply to it's use as an implement unless a more specific rule (like the proficiency bonus note on page 275 or the notes in the Pact dagger and Holy Avenger listing) applies.

So a daggermasters expanded crit range applies to any power delivered through a dagger whether that dagger is working as a weapon or an implement. Likewise a wizard/kensai gets his +1/+4 to any attack he makes through his staff whether that attack is a thump to the head or a ray of frost to the groin.

How could the rules possibly spell it out in plainer language?