Oh noes .. more Daggermaster cheese? (Warlock)
- Thread starter Danceofmasks
- Start date
But really, why NOT allow it? What's unbalancing about it? Is this just a complaint about the flavor of it?
The guy is getting a bonus crit rate, the ability to reroll with an action point, and combat advantage when he crits.
All three of the paragon path powers he'd be getting are not all that useful to a warlock. One allows him to make an extra melee attack when he makes a crit -- but most of the time he'll be too far away to take advantage of the bonus attack. One boosts the damage die of a dagger, which doesn't alter warlock powers. One deals massive ongoing damage with a dagger attack. I'm just not seeing how any of this is overpowering.
The guy is getting a bonus crit rate, the ability to reroll with an action point, and combat advantage when he crits.
All three of the paragon path powers he'd be getting are not all that useful to a warlock. One allows him to make an extra melee attack when he makes a crit -- but most of the time he'll be too far away to take advantage of the bonus attack. One boosts the damage die of a dagger, which doesn't alter warlock powers. One deals massive ongoing damage with a dagger attack. I'm just not seeing how any of this is overpowering.
Because a daggermaster is using a dagger, which does 1d4 damage plus whatever cheese, and multiples thereof. Warlock powers tend to throw multiples of d10. Allowing a higher crit rate on warlock powers would have a more substantial effect than a higher crit rate on dagger hits.
To allow this interpretation, you have to ask yourself, "Is there another way to build a warlock that is just as effective?" and if not, then, "Why would you make a warlock any other way?" It doesn't pass my stink test, and I wouldn't do it, much less allow it.
And here is the reply I received. Now we just need a few more people to send in the same question over the next few days to see if they are consistent.
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Andor
First Post
The point is not the 1d4 damage from the dagger, there are a pile of magic item powers (at the very least +1d6 per plus) and feats (especially for rogues) that only kick in on a crit, not to mention that a rogue should be doing 2 to 5 [w] on every hit at that level. So no, I don't think that melee strikers are really doing a lot less than the ranged striker at that level.
And if you think that is the most powerful prestige class a warlock can multiclass into you really need to take a closer look at the Blood Mage. And that class isn't dependant on a particular magic item.
Goumindong
First Post
It is however, dependent on using wizard powers to gain the most benefit.
Implements have the same bonus to critical damage that weapons do, and several of them have extra cheese on crits as well. So Gear wise, that's equal.
The feats a rogue can get connected to criticals are concerned with maintaining combat advantage, presumably to keep up his bonus sneak attack damage. A warlock doesn't need combat advantage to get his bonus curse damage. As a matter of fact, a warlock taking the Daggermaster path will certainly be insisting that he get sneak attack damage on top of his curse damage against a target on which combat advantage.
Yes, I know that rogues will be doing 2-5[W] on their attacks. Warlocks are doing 2-5d8 or d10 on their attacks. That seems like their 'weapon' does d8 or d10 damage, which is more than 1d4.
I took a look at the Blood Mage. Those powers seemed that they would work great with a mages area burst attacks (which warlock doesn't seem to have a lot of), or would work great no matter what class they were with. That has nothing to do with the warlock.
Can't get it past my nose, I won't swallow it.
Danceofmasks
First Post
Umm, there really isn't a difference at all.
Take a look at a Warpriest's battle cry.
It's an implement attack that deals [W] damage.
Take a look at a Warpriest's battle cry.
It's an implement attack that deals [W] damage.
Andor
First Post
Wow. *blink* Actually I'm pretty sure that has to be a screwup since a priest doesn't have a [w] for an implement unless he happens to have a Holy Avenger.
OTOH consider 'Divine Power' on page 69. It a weapon keyword prayer that does a close burst 2 for radiant damage. You could do it with your fist and hit everybody within 10' of your cleric.
Or Arc of the Righteous. Do you really think there is a significant difference between a chain lightning coming from a holy symbol vs coming from a sword? Especially when a Holy Avenger is both.
The rules are very simple. An attack is an attack. There are implement attacks based off of Str vs AC (Holy Wrath pg 69) and there are weapon attacks that are Intelligence vs Will (Corellon's Blade pg 171.)
If you think there is a difference between a weapon and an implement you're right. There is one, and it's specified on page 275 where it mentions that a power needs the weapon keyword to gain a proficiency bonus to hit. Which incidently means it does apply to Corellon's Blade.
If you look up the discussions of attacks on page 26,56,57, 274,276 or anywhere else you will discover that the only differences are that Proficiency only applies to a power with the Weapon keyword, and that weapons have their own dice [w], but implement powers usually specify what dice to roll.
You may also note that there is no reason at all why a power couldn't have both the weapon and implement keywords.
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