Oh the, ECL, madness!

[Liquide]

The problem comes in the fact that people seem to claculate CR and ECL by different standards. The way that I see it is that CR = the level of a party of four that this creature can take 20% of the resources from.

This means that a CR 4 should take 20% of the resources from a party of four fourth level characters.

Since each character holds 25% of the resources of the party this means that this monster can take 95% of the resources of any given individual in that party. This however does not mean that this creature is only 95% as stong as any member because he can take the punishment from the entire party while dealin out this damage. So I would say that if you take CR * 5 (cause 5 * 20 = 100) you get the ECL of a monster. The core books do not use this philosophy.

[color=white]

race     CR  ECL
====     ==  ===
Elf      1/2 1
Human    NA  1
Half-Elf 1/2 1
Half-Orc 1/2 1
Halfling 1/2 1
Gnome    1/2 1
[/color]

so it appears that ECL = CR * 2, but this does not seem to make any sense. Going by this ration a 20th level wizard is equal to a young adult green dragon.
Take a look at the stats on this monster:
Hit Dice: 17d12 + 108
AC: 25
BaB: +22
Fort/Ref/Will: +14, +10, +12
10d6 breath weapon, Fear DC 20, SR 19, DR 5/+1, Caster level is 3rd.

This is not equivocal to a 20th level human fighter, however using my method of CR * 5 this nasty becomes a ECL of 60 (50 for the dragon and 10 for the character levels). That sounds about right ro me.

I like the idea of ECL. However I find the implementation lacking. Since CR is the amount of damage that a creature can to do a party and ECL is the amount of levels a character needs to equal a monster then I feel that there should be a formula directly relating the two and they should be dependent on one another.

<ul>
<li>If ECL =< 20 Then
CR = ECL (+0 to +3)
<li>If ECL =< 40 AND ECL > 20 Then
CR = (ECL-20)*1/2 + 20
<li>If ECL =< 80 AND ECL > 40 Then
CR = (ECL-40)*1/4 + 30
<li>If ECL =< 160 AND ECL > 80 Then
CR = (ECL-80)*1/8 + 40
<li>If ECL =< 320 AND ECL > 160 Then
CR = (CR-160)*1/16 + 50
</ul>

correct me if this forumla seems very off (I think this is the same one that Upper Krust uses, not sure though)

[color=white]

race     CR  ECL
====     ==  ===
Elf      1/2 1
Human    NA  1
Half-Elf 1/2 1
Half-Orc 1/2 1
Halfling 1/2 1
Gnome    1/2 1
[/color]

This above snipper is not true though :
All of the above races have an ECL of 0, and the CR is for a 1st level warrior of each race not for the race itself.

 

[Drawmack]

Doesn't seem off but it does seem a bit convoluted. I'd much rather have an over all formula.

 

[Liquide]

Doesn't seem off but it does seem a bit convoluted. I'd much rather have an over all formula.

problem is that it doesn't work, it works on pre CR20/ECL20 but over that the challenge/stuff granted from creature break downs in another matter so hving a linear formula will not work, you need to have a floating number.

Still the above can be broken down into a floating formula though, since it follows a pattern (just let me get my math togather for this).

Be back later

 

[Drawmack]

CR = (ECL - (INT(ECL/20) * 20)) * 1/(INT(ECL/10)) + (INT(ECL/10) * 10 - INT(ECL/20) * 10)

x = INT(ECL/20)
y = INT(ECL/10)

CR = (ECL - (X * 20)) * 1/y + (y*10 - x * 10)

The last piece is a bit off but this is fairly close to what you have. As I said this is a bit convoluted.

 

[Garmorn]

Fromula won't work

I don't think that formulas are going to work. ECL is how effective a character is in a party, while CR is how hard it is for a group to defeat. Some of the factors use affect the game very differntly. For example a monster with dark vision normlay does not have a major advangate over any but a very low level party. For a party member it is a minor but far reaching advantage. SR is a more powerfull example. For a monster it is a minor advangate but for a party member it is very powerfull advantage.

 

[I'm A Banana]

All mathematical silliness aside, the ECL's work and work pretty well.

Where it gets wonky is in high ECL's on 1-HD monsters...

Things like a +5 ECL on a 1 HD monster means that by the time you get your first hit die, you're 6th level...that's 6th level, with a max of 12 HP...it's less probnounced but still pretty bad at +3 ECL, even.

*waves bye-bye to your character*

There are some ways around this. DM's I've seen have allowed commoner levels consumate with ECL (making sure they can survive, but not giving them any real tangible benefit), monster levels consumate with ECL (a bit more edgy, to be sure...), the ability to pick up an apprentice level instead of a full class level, etc.

Not sure if others have had any problem like that...

 

[Fenes 2]

Or imagine cure light wounds at will as a spell-like ability. Not very powerful for a higher-level monster (who will probably only get enough mileage out of it if it can successfully use hit-and-run-to-rest-and-recover tactics), but an immense boon to any PC.

 

[buzzard]

I believe that ECL is just fine when taking a combat type character, but a bad idea when taking a spell caster. Granted, in the case of a ECL 1 or so, it won't matter much but the high ECL critters will make worthless spellcasters. They will still make good fighters however. We had a Minotaur barbarian in one campaign, and he was most effective. The extremely high strength and constitution made him into an amazing brick, and it was really sick when he raged. Also having 10' reach was a serious advantage coupled with cleave. Of course for a minotaur the ECL is around 8 (IIRC).

buzzard

 

[clockworkjoe]

It's only worth taking an ECL race when the race has unique advantages that magic can't easily replicate.

For example: The various damage immunities from fiendish/celestial templates.

Spell resistance from drow and deep gnomes

Dodge AC bonus from deep gnomes


In fact, I can see someone wanting to take deep gnome for their awesome resistances and bonuses. They make tough little buggers!

 

[ashockney]

ECL misses the target

We've experienced three big challenges with ECL's:

1) The balance works great...at a certain point. When you are playing a fighter character with a "BRUTE" template, you're WAY overpowered compared to your peers at the lower levels. By the time you get above 12th to 15th, you'll be really lagging behind.

2) It seems very difficult to effectively balance ECL's. The first example of this is the different DRAGON articles, ERRATA, and other that have come out with ECL's all over the place. Where do you turn for a good answer, with credibility with your gaming group? Another example is that depending on how you run your game, giving very specific powers to "raise the bar" above and beyond a certain "ability level" can unbalance the game. For example, granting a natural +6 to strength or more, sets the bar at a new threshold for to hit and damage capacity, given that all the other spells, buffs, and items can still apply.

3) Balance between templates at low levels makes running a game very difficult. If the templates are built to give a "type of advantage" that works well with some characters, it may not work well with other types of characters (ie, Sorcerers vs. Barbarians) and therefore doesn't stack up very well, especially at lower levels.

I've been working on a system to "phase-in" templates like prestige classes, and help bring a better balance to the game system. It's a ton of work for the DM, but it does help to address the needs for balance between characters and balance among levels.