OK so level adjustment +2 or more is really a bad deal!
- Thread starter Sir ThornCrest
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Crothian
First Post
Sir ThornCrest said:
There are some pretty srict guidelines thacharacter has to follow before getting the template and then they have to keep those up. The Template itself gives DR, fast healing, good AC bonuses, boost to Con, Wis, and Cha, helps out DC of spells, and some other things.
ARandomGod
First Post
I think that LA is a bad way to deal with the power curve of a more powerful PC.
It would be much better handled by the GM simply taking into account the power level differential and giving that PC an amount of treasure/magic items less to compensate.
IE Some say that a race that gives +6 to strength and +4 to con would NEED a level adjustment. But, really, if they simply didn't have access to an equivelant amount of magic, it'd be just fine.
Of course, strength and con are the best ones to handle with a LA. OTher things just don't compare.
It would be much better handled by the GM simply taking into account the power level differential and giving that PC an amount of treasure/magic items less to compensate.
IE Some say that a race that gives +6 to strength and +4 to con would NEED a level adjustment. But, really, if they simply didn't have access to an equivelant amount of magic, it'd be just fine.
Of course, strength and con are the best ones to handle with a LA. OTher things just don't compare.
Crothian
First Post
ARandomGod said:
Bob, the half celestrial: I don't know why I can't pick this shield +3 up, it just slides through my hands
Joe, the human: I can pick it up just fine. That's so odd. How about these boots of jumping?
Bob: Nope, same thing. It is like some oter force is limiting what I can have.
Joe: Huh, oh well, guess I get the shiled, the boots, and these gloves.....
Just doesn't make a lot of sense in game.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
The key with picking ANYTHING that has an LA is that the advantages have to equal or outweigh what you'd get for those levels.
For instance - an ogre is an ECL 6 creature.
The primary focus of a fighter are his hitpoints and his base attack.
A fighter 6 has attacks at 6/1. An ogre has one attack at +8, with a +6 (strength and weapon size) to damage. These are roughly equivalent.
A fighter 6 has 6d10 hitpoints (6-60). The ogre has 4d8+8 hitpoints (12-40). So a slight edge to the fighter. The ogres reach and net +3 ac probably makes up for that.
In short - it's worth taking ogre to be a fighter.
Since there are basically no races which give caster levels, it's basically never worth it to have an ECL for a caster. Also, typically, monsters with kewl powerz are heavily overrated in their ECL. Take the doppleganger for instance.
An 8th level rogue will have better and more skills, more abilities, far more hitpoints and is down by only two abilities - detect thoughts and change shape. Since there are spells available which can duplicate both of those abilities, and do it well, the doppleganger hasn't really gained much. Hell - if you take a single level of rogue, able learner and then fill the rest with sorceror, you're probably far superior to the doppleganger. So - doppleganger is a waste of time.
As for half-celestial? It's lame at level 1 - sure you've got funky abilities, but with a single hit-dice it takes but one lucky shot to put you out of the game.
Once you've got some hitpoints backing you up, I'm sure it's quite potent. At level 10 (total ECL 14), that +4 con is making up for your lost hit dice. At that point, having an SR of 20, 3 energy resistances, DR 5/magic and your innate spells are probably making up for your shortfalls in other areas. In actual fact, it's probably worth it as low as level 7 (ECL 11).
Finally - the above only really applies for warrior types - once caster level comes into the equation, drop the templates.
For instance - an ogre is an ECL 6 creature.
The primary focus of a fighter are his hitpoints and his base attack.
A fighter 6 has attacks at 6/1. An ogre has one attack at +8, with a +6 (strength and weapon size) to damage. These are roughly equivalent.
A fighter 6 has 6d10 hitpoints (6-60). The ogre has 4d8+8 hitpoints (12-40). So a slight edge to the fighter. The ogres reach and net +3 ac probably makes up for that.
In short - it's worth taking ogre to be a fighter.
Since there are basically no races which give caster levels, it's basically never worth it to have an ECL for a caster. Also, typically, monsters with kewl powerz are heavily overrated in their ECL. Take the doppleganger for instance.
An 8th level rogue will have better and more skills, more abilities, far more hitpoints and is down by only two abilities - detect thoughts and change shape. Since there are spells available which can duplicate both of those abilities, and do it well, the doppleganger hasn't really gained much. Hell - if you take a single level of rogue, able learner and then fill the rest with sorceror, you're probably far superior to the doppleganger. So - doppleganger is a waste of time.
As for half-celestial? It's lame at level 1 - sure you've got funky abilities, but with a single hit-dice it takes but one lucky shot to put you out of the game.
Once you've got some hitpoints backing you up, I'm sure it's quite potent. At level 10 (total ECL 14), that +4 con is making up for your lost hit dice. At that point, having an SR of 20, 3 energy resistances, DR 5/magic and your innate spells are probably making up for your shortfalls in other areas. In actual fact, it's probably worth it as low as level 7 (ECL 11).
Finally - the above only really applies for warrior types - once caster level comes into the equation, drop the templates.
You could always go the UA route and give the player the option of burning EXP to lower the ECL down. Seems pretty fair in retrospect. Sure, short term, the character is going to be a bit behind, but he/she/it will catch up pretty quick to the rest. Or go the Bloodline route. Each way, if you want to go exotic, tends to make up for the ECL thing.
ThirdWizard
First Post
Generally, I think it is counter-productive to have a higher LA than HD. So if you're going for a +4 LA, you're going to have a hard time unless you have 4 levels of something. After that it picks up, and it works better. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it seems about right.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I think that rule works if whatever it is actually reinforces your class. I think that a level 2 fighter ogre mage would be decent. I think the same thing as a rogue would be awful (in this particular case, fighter is meant to mean "someone who's prime focus is fighting" and rogue is "skillmonkey").ThirdWizard said:
Stone Angel
First Post
A lot of it depends on how you apply the templates LA I suppose. In a recent game I acquired the half elemental template. LA of +2 I think, I was sixth. So I couldn't lvl for a couple sessions. If I had done it in character creation, I most certainly would have been weaker.
The Seraph of Earth and Stone
The Seraph of Earth and Stone
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