OK so level adjustment +2 or more is really a bad deal!

[Crothian]

Which just contributes to my general impression of the book. Which is to say, not good.

and you're not wrong

another problem with LA is it takes away the highest level abilities, which at higher levels is never worth what the character gets in return.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

and you're not wrong

another problem with LA is it takes away the highest level abilities, which at higher levels is never worth what the character gets in return.

That's why I like themed replacement abilities.

I've built, for my own games (well, mostly for my own amusement), some level advancements geared towards each character class that replace class abilities with thematic abilities appropriate to the template's concept.

It's worked well in my games.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

another problem with LA is it takes away the highest level abilities, which at higher levels is never worth what the character gets in return.

Interesting point.

The problem at low to lowish middling levels is that losing multiple HD is a severe blow to character viability. The HPs are the most obvious issue, but it hits hard in the BAB, skill, save department, too. Delaying that iterative attack really hurts fighting characters -- that big Str and reach is not all that impressive when the archer is flinging three arrows per round to your single swing. And there are a number of spell effects that index by HD. Rather embarassing to be the only party member to succumb to Sleep, Color Spray, etc.

If high LAs are lousy at low levels and lousy at high levels, what are they good for. Middling level one-shot adventures?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

If high LAs are lousy at low levels and lousy at high levels, what are they good for. Middling level one-shot adventures?

Pretty much.

I suspect, and this is pure guesswork, that Wizards at least tests their LAs for around 6th to 12th level, the level that they seem to consider "standard" in terms of design - high enough to acquire a PrC or two and some interesting feats, but before the higher level spells kick in and remove any semblance of game balance.

I could be totally off-base, but those seem to be the levels that work best with LA races. You see it in weak races that start and finish slow, and in strong races that require a mid-to-high-level character to enter but become rapidly broken with just a few class levels.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Yes. But in equal proportion to the entire party being rewarded by the increase of virtual magical items created by the influx of the one character with said virtual abilities.

They would be worth more, if you docked the items given out disproportionately. And, once again, this very statement is why they attempted to do something that's easier to enumerate. Some people can't grasp handing out treasure in proportions.

I think the point is that the DM doesn't determine where the treasure goes. If you give out 4000 gp in treasure, and if there are 4 PCs, they will each get 1000 gp. They won't decide to give the guy with the LA+3 500 gp and the other three get 875 gp. It's not a matter of how much treasure is given out, but what you're trying to accomplish (the PC with the LA being made the same power as the PCs without the LA) not being realized.

You can't balance LA with assets, because his assets will always be the same as the other PCs. The whole point of LA is so that one PC does not far outshine the others, for example a half dragon 5th level fighter running around with 5th level PCs.

 

[ARandomGod]

I think the point is that the DM doesn't determine where the treasure goes. If you give out 4000 gp in treasure, and if there are 4 PCs, they will each get 1000 gp. They won't decide to give the guy with the LA+3 500 gp and the other three get 875 gp. It's not a matter of how much treasure is given out, but what you're trying to accomplish (the PC with the LA being made the same power as the PCs without the LA) not being realized.

You can't balance LA with assets, because his assets will always be the same as the other PCs. The whole point of LA is so that one PC does not far outshine the others, for example a half dragon 5th level fighter running around with 5th level PCs.

I've so far managed to determine exactly where the themed treasuer goes. Generally by giving out class specific items for every class but that one... and then less for that one.

 

[Pants]

and you're not wrong

Depends.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Depends.

Yep. Just to prove that Psion is wrong(for me at least ), I like the BoED. My impression of it is good, and there's two characters in one of my high level games working towards becoming Saints.

Ahh, the beauty of different opinions.

 

[Psion]

Yep. Just to prove that Psion is wrong(for me at least ), I like the BoED. My impression of it is good, and there's two characters in one of my high level games working towards becoming Saints.

Ahh, the beauty of different opinions.

I never made any assertions about your impression of the book.

Do be fair, it sounds like Hong made some good use of the book. And I think a few things in it are nifty. It's just that I feel that to get the good out of it, you have to do a bit of filtering.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Actually, it was just kind of nice to say 'Psion is wrong! I disagree with him!!' for once