Ok, so who can be the creator? [2005 Thread]

[Starglim]

On rereading Patryn's argument, I agree with you.

The Item Creation feat is not one of the prerequisites for the purposes of the item creation rules. It's a separate requirement that must be satisfied for anyone to spend XP to make an item, and therefore to be the creator of the item.

Since all Item Creation feats have a caster level prerequisite, there can never be a creator who doesn't have a caster level.

However the creator may have a lower caster level than the item, in the case of items with fixed caster levels.

I'll remove my earlier post.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I've always thought a character can only be designated as a "creator" if they possessed the necessary Item Creation feat. How can a character create *anything* if they do not?

The wizard and the cleric from my earlier example sit down in a quiet room. The wizard meditates a bit, and the cleric enters a trance in which he is receptive to his god's influence. The cleric pricks his finger, allowing the blood to well up in a small, red dot. The wizard dips an unblemished quill in the cleric's blood, and mixes it into a vial of ink he's specifically prepared for this purpose.

The cleric begins to chant in the language of his faith, and the wizard begins to write upon the blank parchment before him. He can sense the flows of magic, coming through the cleric, via the bridge of holy blood into the ink, and from the ink to the pen and paper. His hand moves, almost of its own volition, tracing runes in the language of magic. As each rune is finished, it flares briefly, colored like the sky, locking away part of the cleric's essence, before fading back into the glittery black of the ink.

Some time later, the two are finished. The wizard rolls the scroll, places it in a bone casing, and hands it to the cleric.

-------------------------------------------------

RAW, the Item Creation feat is no more than just another prereq. Having the Item Creation feat represents the knowledge of channeling raw magical force into items. It includes within it the knowledge of how to power that force from your own life force or from the life force of willing participants - note how the rules mention that sometimes, cooperation is necessary to create some items.

The creator of an item determines an item's caster level; whether it is arcane, divine, or neither (in the case of scrolls); and who pays the XP cost.

If, in fact, the creator had to be the one with the Item Creation feat, this line:

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

would be written much differently. Since it does not specify that you need the Item Creation feat in order to be considered the item's creator, ruling so takes you beyond the RAW.

And, really, is it actually a bad thing that the party Wizard can help the party Cleric scribe some scrolls of CLW and Neutralize Poison?

 

[Nail]

And, really, is it actually a bad thing that the party Wizard can help the party Cleric scribe some scrolls of CLW and Neutralize Poison?

Exactly => It's not a Bad Thing(tm). The rules do us a service here, folks.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The Item Creation feat is not one of the prerequisites for the purposes of the item creation rules. It's a separate requirement that must be satisfied for anyone to spend XP to make an item, and therefore to be the creator of the item.

Except that this is incorrect.

MAGIC ITEM DESCRIPTIONS
...
Items with full descriptions have their powers detailed, and each of the following topics is covered in notational form at the end of the description.

• Aura: Most of the time, a detect magic spell will reveal the school of magic associated with a magic item and the strength of the aura an item emits. This information (when applicable) is given at the beginning of the item’s notational entry. See the detect magic spell description for details.

• Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

• Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).

When two spells at the end of a list are separated by “or,” one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two.

• Market Price: This gold piece value, given following the word “Price,” represents the price someone should expect to pay to buy the item. The market price for an item that can be constructed with an item creation feat is usually equal to the base price plus the price for any components (material or XP).

• Cost to Create: The next part of a notational entry is the cost in gp and XP to create the item, given following the word “Cost.” This information appears only for items with components (material or XP), which make their market prices higher than their base prices. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components.

Items without components do not have a “Cost” entry. For them, the market price and the base price are the same. The cost in gp is 1/2 the market price, and the cost in XP is 1/25 the market price.

• Weight: The notational entry for many wondrous items ends with a value for the item’s weight. When a weight figure is not given, the item has no weight worth noting (for purposes of determining how much of a load a character can carry).

Note that the "Prerequisites" mentions "includes one feat and one or more spells."

For an example, here's the Boots of Levitation:

Boots of Levitation: On command, these leather boots allow the wearer to levitate as if she had cast levitate on herself.

Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, levitate; Price 7,500 gp;Weight 1 lb.

Going down the list:

Aura: Faint transmutation
Caster Level: CL 3rd
Prereqs: Craft Wondrous Item, levitate
Market Price: 7,500gp
Cost to Create: -
Weight: 1lb.

So, what are the prereqs?

• Craft Wondrous Item
• Levitate spell

By the above rules,

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

Therefore, each participant must provide one or more of the prereqs. If we have two people participating, one may provide the feat prereq while the other may provide the spell prereq.

So, who's the creator?

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

They must determine this amongst themselves. Note that it does not say, "...they must agree among themselves who, among those with the appropriate Item Creation feat, will be considered the creator ..."

 

[Nail]

Also note: the Caster Level is not a prerequisite! It does, however, limit who can be the creator....so, IMO, it's an "effective" prerequisite.

No fighters as the creator of a Boots of Elvenkind.

 

[Sithobi1]

Also note: the Caster Level is not a prerequisite! It does, however, limit who can be the creator....so, IMO, it's an "effective" prerequisite.

No fighters as the creator of a Boots of Elvenkind.

In what way does it limit who can be the creator. The final item will merely have the caster level of the highest caster among the people who supply prerequisites. If you somehow had an item creation feat without having a caster level, you could create almost anything with no caster level at all.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In what way does it limit who can be the creator. The final item will merely have the caster level of the highest caster among the people who supply prerequisites. If you somehow had an item creation feat without having a caster level, you could create almost anything with no caster level at all.

Not true. An item without a caster level is nonmagical. Moreover, "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given."

In the case of, say, the Boots of Elvenkind, the minimum Caster Level is 1 - because there are no spell prerequisites. The Boots of Levitation, however, have a minimum Caster Level of 3 - the minimum to cast Levitate, a prerequisite spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The final item will merely have the caster level of the highest caster among the people who supply prerequisites.

Uh, no, it will have the caster level of the person who supplies the XP.

"If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item."

"The creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level."

If the elven fighter supplies the "Creator must be an elf" prerequisite, he has to be "the creator". Someone who isn't "the creator" can't supply the "Creator must..." prerequisite, by definition.

Since he's "the creator", he pays the XP, and his caster level - the creator - must be as high as the item's caster level. It doesn't matter that the human wizard he's cooperating with has a caster level of 20. If the wizard is "the creator", they fail the "Creator must be an elf" prerequisite. If the elven fighter is "the creator", the item has no caster level.

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Since he's "the creator", he pays the XP, and his caster level - the creator - must be as high as the item's caster level.

Apart from "A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.", where is caster level a prerequisite?

The only prerequisite is a high enough caster level to cast the appropriate spells, not the written caster level in the item description.

It doesn't matter that the human wizard he's cooperating with has a caster level of 20. If the wizard is "the creator", they fail the "Creator must be an elf" prerequisite. If the elven fighter is "the creator", the item has no caster level.

As far as I can see, you're just fine having the above pair produce boots of elvenkind with the elf as creator. There's no prequisite that they fail to meet, and the item DOES have a caster level - it's just "-" instead of a number. Undead do, for instance, have a con score - a con score of "-".

OTOH, they can't produce a cloak of elvenkind that way, because the elf's caster level is insufficient to cast invisibility.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As far as I can see, you're just fine having the above pair produce boots of elvenkind with the elf as creator. There's no prequisite that they fail to meet, and the item DOES have a caster level - it's just "-" instead of a number. Undead do, for instance, have a con score - a con score of "-".

"A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level."

So this cloak's bonus is 2 + (.5 x [NULL])?

Note that not having a caster level is not the same as having a caster level of 0. So that's not just a bonus of 2. It's a bonus that the rules fail to cater for, because the effect of 'no caster level' is not defined.

It's why a 3rd level Paladin can't use a scroll of CLW. He needs to make a caster level check to activate it, and he has no caster level. It's not 1d20+0; it's 1d20 plus a number that doesn't exist.

"If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level."

Again, there's a problem. If I roll a 7 on my dispel check, is that less than or greater than [NULL]?

If I cast Detect Magic on these boots, what strength of aura do they show? 'Faint' is for a caster level of '5th or lower'. Is [NULL] lower than 5th? Or is the question meaningless?

CL 0 is lower than CL 5 on the Caster Level number line. "No caster level" isn't on the line at all!

The rules don't support items with no caster level.

-Hyp.