OK, we're gettng a little annoyed here!

[Rechan]

I'm tempted to start a thread about "Is it okay to have an opinion?"

There appears to be a lot of division, not just about being a "Wotc Fanboy" or a "4e hater", but also "It's too early to have an opinion" vs. all ready making decisions.

I mean, what do you do when say, 95% of what has come out about 4e pleases/displeases you? What does that Make you? Is that OK? Can you talk about it? Where should you talk about it?

 

[Celebrim]

I'm tempted to start a thread about "Is it okay to have an opinion?"

There appears to be a lot of division, not just about being a "Wotc Fanboy" or a "4e hater", but also "It's too early to have an opinion" vs. all ready making decisions.

I mean, what do you do when say, 95% of what has come out about 4e pleases/displeases you? What does that Make you? Is that OK? Can you talk about it? Where should you talk about it?

Early on we were expressly forbidden from voicing a negative opinion, so I think the answer is, "It isn't ok." and "Not here."

Which at this point is for me, "Ok.", because really, I don't have much interest in talking about things I don't like. I've said what I could, enraged alot of people for saying even that, and thats it. My participation in 4e forums is likely to be minimal. I foresee that over time, the number of threads which will be on something I find interesting enough to comment on will diminish, so I'm likely in my last phase here at EnWorld. Old players never die, they just fade away. Kinda sucks, but what can you do.

I only comment, praise, or flame topics I care about and 4e, success or not, is quickly going into my mental bargin bin to gather dust.

My suspicion is that this particular contriversy is going to go away almost completely regardless of what the moderators do or don't do or say or don't say, for the simple reason that sooner or latter the board is going to be overwhelmingly those that are interested in the current game. The closest we will then get to this again is 'edition wars' where someone who hated earlier editions of the game provokes those that like both the current and early versions by disparaging both the earlier edition and the people who played it. But people who generally dislike 4e are going to leave or at least reduce participation. That's just the nature of the thing.

Everyone should find that reason to chill. If you don't like how the boards are now, just wait.

 

[HeinorNY]

There are 2 kinds of behaviour:
- people that complain about a rule they don't like, or feel that it's silly, broken or plain stupid, but because they love the game and whish it to be better;
and
- people that complain about rules or aspects of the new edition because they just don't like it or don't want it, or want it to fail, and complain to prove everyone that the previous edition is better and the new edition surely sucks.

I've seen the second one a lot. The opposite to this behaviour obviously exists, the so called "fanboy", but the distinction between them is that the "fanboy", being right or wrong, cynical or not, does care about the 4E, and the other, the "nay-sayer-hater" simply doesn't.

If you really don't care about 4E, think twice before posting on 4E forums, because there is a great chance that you will fall for that second bad behaviour, and that's pretty unconstructive.

So, I believe the main problem starts when people talk, positively or negatively, about things they don't care.
If you don't care about it, then what are the motives to talk about it in the first place? Only bad motives come to my mind as the answer.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I've seen the second one a lot. The opposite to this behaviour obviously exists, the so called "fanboy", but the distinction between them is that the "fanboy", being right or wrong, cynical or not, does care about the 4E, and the other, the "nay-sayer-hater" simply doesn't.

Right, because somebody can mindlessly LOVE something without any other reason than its existence and care for it, but HATE something mindlessly for no other reason than its existence and not care for it.

Sorry, doesn't compute. Both sides care for the thing in question, otherwise there would be no passion involved. You simply attribute the "positive" attitude of the f4nboy to caring for 4E and the negative attitude of the h4ter to not caring. Doesn't work that way. Somebody who doesn't care about 4E in the first place doesn't get riled up about it in either direction.

 

[HeinorNY]

You simply attribute ...

I'm not attributing anything. I'm not saying the cause for fanboysm is this, and the cause for hatism is that, I'm just pointing a kind of behaviour I think is bad for the forum and often leads the thread to an unsconstructive discussion or fight.

So, I believe the main problem starts when people talk, positively or negatively, about things they don't care.
If you don't care about it, then what are the motives to talk about it in the first place? Only bad motives come to my mind as the answer.

.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I'm not attributing anything. I'm not saying the cause for fanboysm is this, and the cause for hatism is that, I'm just pointing a kind of behaviour I think is bad for the forum and often leads the thread to an unsconstructive discussion or fight.

Just out of personal curiosity then...this part here

I've seen the second one a lot. The opposite to this behaviour obviously exists, the so called "fanboy", but the distinction between them is that the "fanboy", being right or wrong, cynical or not, does care about the 4E, and the other, the "nay-sayer-hater" simply doesn't.

...does not say that the fanboy is a fanboy (= overdone but positive attitude about 4E) because he cares about 4E, and that this differentiates him from the hater, who is a hater (= overdone but negative attitude about 4E) because he doesn't care about 4E, and that the first is preferable over the second?

Just would like to get that cleared up if you don't mind. English is not my first language, and I still get some things wrong now and then.

 

[HeinorNY]

Sorry, what i've meant is that there are two sides, those who complain and those those cheer about 4E. In both cases there are people that actually don't care about the new edition, they are decided not to shift, but stay in the 4E forums talking about something they don't care.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Ah, okay, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Nifft]

I'm tempted to start a thread about "Is it okay to have an opinion?"

There appears to be a lot of division, not just about being a "Wotc Fanboy" or a "4e hater", but also "It's too early to have an opinion" vs. all ready making decisions.

I mean, what do you do when say, 95% of what has come out about 4e pleases/displeases you? What does that Make you? Is that OK? Can you talk about it? Where should you talk about it?

IMHO it really depends on if you have anything interesting to say. Interesting things would be news, rumors and discussion regarding 4e.

An unconditional "I love 4e!" is just as uninformative and pointless as an unconditional "I hate 4e!", and honestly I want to hear neither. However, in this forum, we get a lot of the latter, and I haven't seen much of the former at all. So in theory they're equally useless and annoying, but in practice only one of them annoys me.

When is an opinion like or unlike a discussion? When you can be swayed, or when you are open to talking about it. "I hate 4e and am never buying it!" -- yeah, lots of room for discussion there. (Again, just as much as "I love 4e and have already pre-bought every book WotC will publish!", but I don't see tons of those posts.)

Basically, how much something pleases or displeases you is irrelevant to how much I want to hear from you. How interesting your point is -- and open you are to discussion about it, be that discussion agreement or disagreement -- is totally relevant.

One man's opinion, -- N

 

[Hairfoot]

It seems to me that most posters in the 4E forums feel that 4E is moving D&D away from them and the game they want to play, or toward it, although it oftens feels like both.

For my part, the simplification of rules is moving it toward my my playing style, which makes me say "yay 4E", but the flavour and fluff is feeling downright alien and quite unlike D&D as I know it, which puts me in the "boo 4E" camp.

What it boils down to is that, with exceptions, most people aren't entirely pro- or anti-4E, just opinionated on particular aspects.