OK, we're gettng a little annoyed here!

[malladin]

Huh?

Fantasy Flight Games continues to thrive as a board game company, and is packed with full-time professional game designers, but is "dead" in the 3e sense.

Necromancer Games continues to thrive as a 3e company and is helmed by a full-time lawyer (and amateur game designer).

Moreover, the only quantifiable measure of "professional" game designer is someone who gets paid to design games. So your definition is somewhat self-selecting: if they are still making and selling games, they are professionals-- but if they stopped, they are not?

And congratulations if you can point me to a single 3e game designer with any formal "professional" game design accreditation.

The only things necessary for success in the 3rd party market are talent, enthusiasm, and committment. Necromancer Games' crew, for example, has these in spades.

Given those three things, the money will come, and "Poof!" you're a professional in the only sense that matters.

Saved me a post

 

[Arnwyn]

An unconditional "I love 4e!" is just as uninformative and pointless as an unconditional "I hate 4e!", and honestly I want to hear neither. However, in this forum, we get a lot of the latter, and I haven't seen much of the former at all.

Interesting. I've seen equal amounts.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Interesting. I've seen equal amounts.

I think the perceived tone of threads will partially depend on people's ignore lists.

 

[Odhanan]

What bothers me is that many people who have made up their mind to not go to 4e... are still here. They still feel the need to post in several threads "I've been left behind, WotC fired me as a customer, this isn't D&D, I am not switching." If the decision is made... why continue to draw attention to it? Just go on enjoying 3e to your heart's content.

When a gamer has made up his own mind he still can share his opinion. It might be because he is interested in game design in general, or because he feels the community is going in a direction he would like to see rectified, or because he would like to find people like-minded he wouldn't have identified if he didn't post his own opinions... there are many different reasons why someone who made up his mind would keep on posting on any particular topic.

What bothers me, personally, is the tendency of posters to tell others what to do or not do based on the opinions they have. That rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Remathilis]

Huh?

Most of those companies you mentioned started out amateur, and grew into full time production companies. I recall the younger days (that first year or so) that there were PLENTY of little one-shot mom-n-pop presses that made a couple d20 books (or PDFs) and tried to make a quick buck off them. They were sub-par rules, poor editing, and no understanding of the perils of printing. A hobbystore by my house is still littered with those rejects, they can't GIVE them away. Some great stuff came out during that period also (much by talented amateurs, many posting on this messageboard) but nearly 3 times as much failed.

Who survived the d20 collapse? Paizo (lots of former Dungeon/Dragon talent), Necromancer's (boosted by Paizo), Green Ronin (Pramas), Malhavoc (until Monte quit d20), Goodman Games (a great example of talented amateurs you cite) and Troll Lord Games (who has the Mighty Gygax helping them out).

But, my point is that just because I've played D&D for 10+ years and designed my own world or houserules doesn't mean I know what's best for D&D and how-dare-WotC-not-share-my-opinion as a few has alluded to...

 

[Rechan]

When a gamer has made up his own mind he still can share his opinion.

I didn't say he couldn't. The source of my question is "Why drag on letting everyone know you're not going?"

If it was about connecting with people of like minded, hey, that's easy - there's threads like "Not going to 4e". If it's "To voice your opinion", sure. Several people have . But that doesn't explain why they do it at every opportunity in every thread they come to. The 'I decided three months ago to not go with 4e, and yet I'm still here...' is IMHO, silly.

It comes off as saying "That's it, I'm out of this party. I'm leaving. I am gone. See me leaving? I'm walking to the door. I'm moving towards the door. You guys are going to miss me. I am so gone. Later everybody. See you. Bye. Here, I'm AT THE DOOR. Totally going to leave. Don't want to stay here anymore. Can you guys see me? Because here I am, my hand on the doorknob. I'm totally turning it. Going to leave here in just a second. Yep, outta here."

What bothers me, personally, is the tendency of posters to tell others what to do or not do based on the opinions they have. That rubs me the wrong way.

So you don't think that people should act on their opinions?

If I hate pickles, yet I continue to stay in the room for pickle eaters and, continue to eat pickles, and continue to complain about pickle-eating, eventually someone is going to turn to me and say "Well if you hate them WHY ARE YOU EATING THEM?" After a while, it comes off as either the individual being masochistic, or just liking to complain.

The person with the opinion has the right to say it - and the next person has the right to express their opinion of what the first person said.

I'm not questioning the right to say it. I'm questioning why they continue to remain to say it long after the decision has been made.

 

[Cadfan]

Interesting. I've seen equal amounts.

Even if there ARE equal amounts, which I'm not prepared to accept, they are not equivalent activities. Unconditionally loving something and unconditionally hating it are not two sides of the same coin.

 

[Lanefan]

The biggest thing I see on the boards is not pro/con, but the attitude from some that "I could have done that better".

Everyone who has ever played D&D has been encouraged to "tinker". Fix this, houserule that. No other game I can think of has as many homebrewed setting, houserules, and extensive rules-rewrites than D&D. Hell, D&D has ENCOURAGED it at various times (OD&D was chock-full of "make up your own rules" areas, even 3.5 has "Unearthed Arcana".)

This has lead many people to think of themselves not as players or DMs, but as "amateur game designers"

Sounds just fine to me so far. Instead of trying to build the whole game for us, the designers just design (and provide) the tools we can use to build our own. What's wrong with that?

Its obvious in every "I wouldn't have done THAT" post that appears down the pipes. Many are simply preference issues (I'd rather tieflings remained a monster and gnomes a PC race) but many of the most hateful, spiteful, and vile posts come from this attitude that "I know better than WotC, and if they don't develop the game according to my tastes, I'll quit make them pay!"

With 4e, they're not only building a new game but are redesigning and updating all the tools in the toolbox. However, not all of us are prepared to throw out all our old tools - which have served us well and that we know how to use - and would prefer instead to find ways of using our 1e screwdriver, 2e wrench, 3e hammer, and shiny new 4e power drill to build a playable game. Thus, when some news tidbit comes out that makes it rather obvious that the 2e wrench has to be tossed because 4e is using a different standard (cf metric vs. imperial) of course there's going to be squawks...particularly if it appears that 4e's version of a wrench is going to be more difficult to use. So yes; "I wouldn't have done THAT" is a perfectly legitimate statement, provided it's followed with "Here's what I would have done (or not done) instead..."

Lanefan

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Most of those companies you mentioned started out amateur, and grew into full time production companies.

The thrust of your post was a bit of elitist .

I recall the younger days (that first year or so) that there were PLENTY of little one-shot mom-n-pop presses that made a couple d20 books (or PDFs) and tried to make a quick buck off them. They were sub-par rules, poor editing, and no understanding of the perils of printing.

I agree. But that has nothing to do with the professionalism of anybody who jumped in and succeeded, and whether or not they continue to publish today. To say that the only companies that succeeded were the ones started and staffed by established "professional" game designers is ignorant of the facts.

So: Talented, enthusiastic, and dedicated people are still publishing. Capitalism works.

But, my point is that just because I've played D&D for 10+ years and designed my own world or houserules doesn't mean I know what's best for D&D and how-dare-WotC-not-share-my-opinion as a few has alluded to...

Mike Mearls did ok for a scrappy little upstart, now didn't he? I guess he friggin well DOES know what's best for D&D, since he went from this to Lead Developer.

Mike Mearls pretty much puts a bullet through the heart of your argument.

 

[Piratecat]

Tone down the hostility, please.