OK, we're gettng a little annoyed here!

[Horacio]

It doesn't work like that. Internet posts will not pay for product development; people need to buy 3.5 material if they want more of it.

[...]

In short: stop posting, start buying. Or 3.5 will disappear forever.

That's the best reasoned argument I've seen in a while.

And not only because it comes from a publisher AND forum admin, but because it's a great truth. The most valid support for 3.5 now is wallet support.

 

[malladin]

Thank you Morrus. That is better than what I could've said, since you have the weight of a 3e publisher.


First, I don't think anyone here is saying anything about censorship. I am not saying "Hey, you don't like 4e, get the hell out."

Second, as to "opinions on the way we would like 4e to go", 4e is going in a direction, with or without you. Sure, the complaints over Dragon Tail Cut go heard, but I really don't think that WotC is going to turn the direction they've been going for the last - what, two years? - based on some posts on the message boards. Tieflings are in, Gnomes are Out. Warlocks are in, Bards aren't. Those are decisions that are probably set in stone, and no amount of criticism is going to save it.

Besides, do you think that WotC would listen to the overly dissatisfied customers over 4e? From the way some people around here talk, they would have to overhaul the entire thing just to please some people. They've made the decision, set their course, and it will alienate some people. I believe they're banking on it drawing in more people than it alienates.

Thirdly, my point boils down to this: 4e is coming, with you or without you. You will ultimately have to make the choice, "Do I play 4e or no?" If no, then isn't it both a little futile, and doesn't it frustrate yourself, to stick around in a place devoted to an edition you won't play, seeing information that makes you mad because it's not the direction you want to go, all for the purposes of saying "I don't like this

So, EN World isn't a place for all editions of D&D with a sub-forum for forth edition. If thats the case why doesn't the site owner say so and non 4th ed people can move on. Otherwise this is the second post on this page that seems to me to effectively say, despite claiming not too, well if all you want to do is state your opinion and its not positive to 4th ed clear off. Unfortunately I think you'll get your desire. Most provokers seem happy playing the passive aggressive game to avoid moderation problems- and unfortunately the quality and variety of opinions and discussion on the site will go down because of it. Very sad to see

 

[malladin]

It doesn't work like that. Internet posts will not pay for product development; people need to buy 3.5 material if they want more of it.

EN Publishing can't afford to put out any more 3.5 books, because we know nobody will buy them. We have to finish War of the Burning Sky because people paid in advance for it, but believe me when I say each adventure at present is just another financial drain. We're not putting any other 3.5 stuff out; we just can't.

In short: stop posting, start buying. Or 3.5 will disappear forever.

So people can't do both?

 

[malladin]

I saw this elsewhere and it says it all about the situation I find from a not going to 4th ed position.

Thorn #1 are the handful of posters that are "on my side," but they don't stop and stating what they don't like about 4th edition, they don't stop at saying they aren't planning on buying it. They have to go the extra mile and say that WOTC is intentionally putting out crap, that they have never put out good products, and that ever since they bought TSR, they have been engaged in a grand conspiracy to "force" us to buy crap and then sit back and laugh at us. I'm not happy with WOTC right now, and there have been some products I had little use for, or that I thought could have been a lot better . . . but if I didn't like any of their work, why did I buy everything I did? And furthermore, when you have hyperbole machines going full steam "on your side," it makes it hard for people to cut through all of that to see the actual good points made by some of the anti 4th edition types.


Thorn #2 is the 4th edition supporter that doesn't really want to debate anything. He wants to answer every single 4th edition thread, and when people show a preference to the way things used to be presented, he tries to dismiss any personal preference by saying that those that have a personal preference don't realize that D&D is a game, and that such people with preferences are lost in a fantasy world and can't deal with reality. Our petty concerns are beneath him . . . or at least they are far enough beneath him that he can dismiss them, but not far enough that he doesn't feel obligated to pop in and respond to remind us that they are beneath him.

Seriously, I want to hear everyone's opinion on this thing, and I realize I'm not always going to agree with people, and from time to time, I'm going to loose it and say something dumb. I'm sorry for that, but I really, really, am getting tired of every thread on 4th edition going like this:

Thorn #1: X bit of information about 4th edition just proves that WOTC sucks. Its more of the horrible crap they have been selling for years, and its obvious they have no talent and only care about money, and they are intentionally making D&D into horrid crap, and trying to force us to buy it.

Thorn #2: I'm amazed that anyone cares about X. If you don't like it, you can ignore it, but if you are emotionally connected to any of this, then you obviously can't distinguish reality from fantasy. Its clear that the designers are make a great game, and if you realized it was a game, then you would realize that things can change at any time if it is even remotely good for game design. In fact, I like X, but if they change X next week without any explanation, I'd be fine with that, because a devotion to continuity is the sign of a diseased mind.

Maybe we should just not try to be thorns!

 

[Morrus]

So people can't do both?

They're welcome to do both. Only one of them will make any difference though.

 

[malladin]

They're welcome to do both. Only one of them will make any difference though.

Fair enough, you strongly believe this and thats cool. As with most of life I'm sure individuals can decide where their efforts are best spent and as your not saying they can't, thanks for elabourating, thats reassurring.

 

[Kesh]

So, EN World isn't a place for all editions of D&D with a sub-forum for forth edition. If thats the case why doesn't the site owner say so and non 4th ed people can move on. Otherwise this is the second post on this page that seems to me to effectively say, despite claiming not too, well if all you want to do is state your opinion and its not positive to 4th ed clear off. Unfortunately I think you'll get your desire. Most provokers seem happy playing the passive aggressive game to avoid moderation problems- and unfortunately the quality and variety of opinions and discussion on the site will go down because of it. Very sad to see

That's a rather strong bit of hyperbole there. No one's saying "get off my lawn" here. But we're tired of folks trolling the 4e forum. And honestly, that's what it boils down to: people who come in here to complain, not to offer constructive opinions. If you want to post about other games, that's fine. Older editions of D&D, that's fine. But coming here just to slag WotC or 4e is counter-productive and hostile, neither of which is conducive to a healthy forum.

 

[malladin]

That's a rather strong bit of hyperbole there. No one's saying "get off my lawn" here. But we're tired of folks trolling the 4e forum. And honestly, that's what it boils down to: people who come in here to complain, not to offer constructive opinions. If you want to post about other games, that's fine. Older editions of D&D, that's fine. But coming here just to slag WotC or 4e is counter-productive and hostile, neither of which is conducive to a healthy forum.

As pointed out above though 3.5 people are probably equally tired of perceving their concerns and criticisms as being dismissed as inconsequential, see Thorns post above. My argument is its not your, my or any other posters job to decide what is or isn't acceptable, constructive, or trolling, its the admins and mods and they should be left to do it. Jumping in saying someone else's view is illegitimate just because it isn't your own,from either side, doesn't help. My view is it's better to stand up for what you believe will make a healthy forum, not just the kind of one you want, than just slink away because other people are determined to shout louder, and from my perspective I see this happening. Sadly, i'll probably give up soon as well though, my gamings not affected by people here and how they choose to treat others over something as irrelevant as a game, but i'll be sorry to feel a disconnection with a site I've enjoyed so much in the past.

 

[malladin]

It doesn't work like that. Internet posts will not pay for product development; people need to buy 3.5 material if they want more of it.

In short: stop posting, start buying. Or 3.5 will disappear forever.

Not sure if this is the right place, I've put it here as it links directly to previous discussion; please move accoirdingly, but if your encouraging people who are interested in keeping 3.5 alive through buying Phil Reed has been talking about this:

He never calls the idea "3.75" but he does mention that in The Digital Front Podcast the possibility of some of the PDF publishers getting together and releasing what amounts to the 3.5 SRD cleaned up some and with some minor tweeks and releasing it as a free download/at cost Lulu print product and with that develop their own 3.5 fantasy brand. Reason he gave why the PDFer may do this is: The PDFers are able to still make a profit while selling at smaller quantities. He begins talking about this at about 33 minutes into the podcast.

 

[Cadfan]

As pointed out above though 3.5 people are probably equally tired of perceving their concerns and criticisms as being dismissed as inconsequential, see Thorns post above. My argument is its not your, my or any other posters job to decide what is or isn't acceptable, constructive, or trolling, its the admins and mods and they should be left to do it. Jumping in saying someone else's view is illegitimate just because it isn't your own,from either side, doesn't help. My view is it's better to stand up for what you believe will make a healthy forum, not just the kind of one you want, than just slink away because other people are determined to shout louder, and from my perspective I see this happening. Sadly, i'll probably give up soon as well though, my gamings not affected by people here and how they choose to treat others over something as irrelevant as a game, but i'll be sorry to feel a disconnection with a site I've enjoyed so much in the past.

Malladin- this has been bugging me for a while as you post in this thread, so I'm just going to say it.

You seem to have no ability to differentiate between:

1: EN World
2: The Fourth Edition Sub Forum at EN World.

These are not the same thing.

If there was a "Third Edition D&D Sub Forum" at EN World, the people there would have every right to be irked by constant visits from fourth edition fans going on and on about vague, impressionistic reasons they don't like third edition. Even the ones who weren't intentionally being annoying would get really old, really fast.

Stopping that from happening is one of the convenient benefits of having sub forums.

Which we do.