OK, we're gettng a little annoyed here!

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Sounds just fine to me so far. Instead of trying to build the whole game for us, the designers just design (and provide) the tools we can use to build our own. What's wrong with that?With 4e, they're not only building a new game but are redesigning and updating all the tools in the toolbox. However, not all of us are prepared to throw out all our old tools - which have served us well and that we know how to use - and would prefer instead to find ways of using our 1e screwdriver, 2e wrench, 3e hammer, and shiny new 4e power drill to build a playable game. Thus, when some news tidbit comes out that makes it rather obvious that the 2e wrench has to be tossed because 4e is using a different standard (cf metric vs. imperial) of course there's going to be squawks...particularly if it appears that 4e's version of a wrench is going to be more difficult to use. So yes; "I wouldn't have done THAT" is a perfectly legitimate statement, provided it's followed with "Here's what I would have done (or not done) instead..."

Lanefan

Honestly, I don't really understand to what the toolbox examples could refer to in the game. I have only third-hand knowledge of AD&D, but I really fail to see how there is a difference in the "toolbox" used between 3rd and 4th edition that would be bigger then between 2nd and 3rd.

But, well, it's not really on topic, is it? This is a "meta" discussion on how to conduct a discussion. But maybe it still highlights something
Avoid general statements. Give concrete examples of what you like, why you like it. Give concrete examples of what you do not like, and why you don't like it.

Statements like "It's not D&D anymore", "It's videogamey", "WotC is firing me as a customer!", "It's the best game ever", "it's better balanced", "it will be easier to DM", all these statements don't tell my how the person came to this conclusion. I might not agree with the reasoning that will be given for any such statement, but at least give me a way to understand them. If I don't agree, I will probably present an alternative interpretation, but all these things serve the discussion, because they give people food for thought and material to discuss.

 

[Doug McCrae]

When a gamer has made up his own mind he still can share his opinion.

What's the point if he's that set in his ways? Ultimately it stops being a discussion and becomes an (unwelcome) attempt to proselytise.

It might be because he is interested in game design in general

Then shouldn't he post on a forum devoted to game design in general?

or because he would like to find people like-minded he wouldn't have identified if he didn't post his own opinions...

If he's looking for 4e haters this forum is, or should be, and is rapidly becoming, the wrong place to look.

or because he feels the community is going in a direction he would like to see rectified

What bothers me, personally, is the tendency of posters to tell others what to do or not do based on the opinions they have. That rubs me the wrong way.

Wanting to see other people's opinions 'rectified', and expressing it, is an example of telling others what to do based on the opinions they have.

It seems to me you're saying proselytising is fine provided it goes one way.

 

[Odhanan]

(angry stuff edited out)

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Lets not inspire one of the mods to close a thread opened by Morrus himself due to outbreaking hostilities. It starts to sound like the plenty of other threads that arose around the topic of "who may post here", and that's not helpful, as those threads have demonstrated.

 

[Odhanan]

I apologize. It's all sour grapes. I won't be visiting the 4E forum any time soon.

 

[thorian]

What bothers me is that many people who have made up their mind to not go to 4e... are still here. They still feel the need to post in several threads "I've been left behind, WotC fired me as a customer, this isn't D&D, I am not switching." If the decision is made... why continue to draw attention to it? Just go on enjoying 3e to your heart's content.

I think there are a lot of us who would like to show that there is still widespread support for 3E/3.5E. If people don't get to see that there is fan support, they will be less likely to decide to put out material.

Others of us would like to be able to express our opinions on the way we would like 4E to go, and sometimes, that means being critical of 4E. Most of us on ENWorld love D&D. We should all be able to express our opinions freely and without censorship as long as we aren't firing off personal attacks.

 

[Morrus]

I think there are a lot of us who would like to show that there is still widespread support for 3E/3.5E. If people don't get to see that there is fan support, they will be less likely to decide to put out material.

It doesn't work like that. Internet posts will not pay for product development; people need to buy 3.5 material if they want more of it.

EN Publishing can't afford to put out any more 3.5 books, because we know nobody will buy them. We have to finish War of the Burning Sky because people paid in advance for it, but believe me when I say each adventure at present is just another financial drain. We're not putting any other 3.5 stuff out; we just can't.

In short: stop posting, start buying. Or 3.5 will disappear forever.

 

[malladin]

STUFF

Really, how does it help to tell people what they, in your opinion, should post and where. There are site admins and mods to deal with inappropriate behaviour and posts. I thought the point of this thread was to encourage positive discussion, which isn't helped by one sides opinions being devalued. Yes these boards are changing, but if it's through driving people, such as Oldahan for example, away because they don't feel they can speak freely within the board rules, I don't see how this is a change for the better. And you may think people are 'haters' but that doesn't make them such and calling them it doesn't contribute to open discussion or reduce hostility.

 

[Rechan]

Thank you Morrus. That is better than what I could've said, since you have the weight of a 3e publisher.

Others of us would like to be able to express our opinions on the way we would like 4E to go, and sometimes, that means being critical of 4E. Most of us on ENWorld love D&D. We should all be able to express our opinions freely and without censorship as long as we aren't firing off personal attacks.

First, I don't think anyone here is saying anything about censorship. I am not saying "Hey, you don't like 4e, get the hell out."

Second, as to "opinions on the way we would like 4e to go", 4e is going in a direction, with or without you. Sure, the complaints over Dragon Tail Cut go heard, but I really don't think that WotC is going to turn the direction they've been going for the last - what, two years? - based on some posts on the message boards. Tieflings are in, Gnomes are Out. Warlocks are in, Bards aren't. Those are decisions that are probably set in stone, and no amount of criticism is going to save it.

Besides, do you think that WotC would listen to the overly dissatisfied customers over 4e? From the way some people around here talk, they would have to overhaul the entire thing just to please some people. They've made the decision, set their course, and it will alienate some people. I believe they're banking on it drawing in more people than it alienates.

Thirdly, my point boils down to this: 4e is coming, with you or without you. You will ultimately have to make the choice, "Do I play 4e or no?" If no, then isn't it both a little futile, and doesn't it frustrate yourself, to stick around in a place devoted to an edition you won't play, seeing information that makes you mad because it's not the direction you want to go, all for the purposes of saying "I don't like this"?

A period of voicing your feelings of disappointment, understandable. Yet, how long are you willing to do that, with regards to something you don't like? Two weeks? Two months? Two years?

Deciding not to play 4e is a valid choice. But there comes a time when I have to ask, "Okay, your complaints far outweigh your positive feelings in this situation. What does that say to you? And what will you do about it?"

 

[frankthedm]

We should all be able to express our opinions freely and without censorship as long as we aren't firing off personal attacks.

Enworld does not permit broad scale attacks, general attacks, untargeted attacks or any other style of message board attack. It is a private message board and the mods will do what is needed to keep the board’s aura of civility. If someone has a reasonable complaint, Enworld will in all likelihood let that person express it. But when that complaint comes off as rude, argumentative or unsupported, mods here will step in.