OK, we're gettng a little annoyed here!

[Alt Boy!]

Sock Puppets are a big problem too.

 

[Cadfan]

I hate to say it, be we've become just like a Star Wars forum with one camp refusing to see anything positive about the prequels and leaping on every opportunity to tell people who like them how terrible the movies are, and the camp of those who like the prequel films leaping on everyone who criticizes them.

It always takes two sides, but in my experience, it's usually the "bashers"/haters who start the whole thing going. Not by expressing their opinions or voicing criticism, but by the thinly-veiled insults that they express indirectly. Many of the posts have an unspoken "and you must be an idiot if you actually like this crap" or "your tastes are not as refined as my own" or other equally condescending tone. And because of this, every negative opinion is taken this way in very short order and everyone on the other side gets defensive now the haters "must be stupid if they can't see the positive qualities."

People at both extremes are prone to threadcrapping once passions start to heat up, and it doesn't really matter who started the whole thing at that point.

If all that you can contribute to a discussion is a snide remark that essentially says one of:

"You're obviously less intelligent than I am."
"Well, your tastes just aren't as refined as mine yet."
"When you've been playing as long as I have, you'll see things differently."
"If you were willing to put as much time and effort into the game as I do, you'd see things differently."
"Well, if a dumbed-down approach appeals to you, you're welcome to it."
"If you weren't so afraid of change, you'd appreciate why this works better."
"Well, if those are the books/movies/whatever that you like, it's no wonder you think this way."

then don't say anything.

No, no. A real troll doesn't say those things.

Instead of saying "Well, if a dumbed-down approach appeals to you, you're welcome to it,"

a real troll would say, "I'm growing concerned that 4e is adopting a dumbed down approach to D&D designed to appeal to a generation of gamers raised on World of Warcraft."

See, now you're not talking about anyone in particular (so no mod problems! yay!) but you've managed to insult everyone who likes 4e AND everyone who likes World of Warcraft, all in one shot.

Post that enough times, and eventually somebody will say something rude to you and get banned. Glee!

A true super ninja meta troll doesn't even say that. He just quotes someone else who DID say that, and writes "QFT."

 

[Pbartender]

A true super ninja meta troll doesn't even say that. He just quotes someone else who DID say that, and writes "QFT."

QFT.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Sock Puppets are a big problem too.

Why the hate?

 

[Imp]

My feeling is that real discussion, debate and intellectual process almost never happen in online forums. They decay into flame wars unless separated out into different boards/newsgroups, and strong moderation keeps things polite but eventually eliminates dissenters.

Having participated in online forums that have really made a fetish of "real discussion, debate and intellectual process" I have to agree with this sentiment, and my experiences with other places tell me that keeping things polite, while it may be desirable in itself, has got little to do with quality-of-debate. But more importantly, quality-of-debate turns out to be kind of a bad goal to begin with.

ENWorld, and web forums in general, are pretty lousy venues for argument. Here, people "win" arguments by arch passive-aggressiveness and simple grinding persistence, in other places it may be a cutting remark, a thorough takedown citing multiple sources, or smelling blood and using pack tactics, whatever, in no place anywhere does the "I am convinced by the logic of your statements, I am now a convert to your point of view, thanks you for this discussion" scenario happen except once in a blue moon. Usually it's just an endurance and volume contest. What forums are very very good at, however, is the sharing of ideas and perspectives, with an eye towards creativity, which is why the "how can I do X" or "how do I run Y" threads are such fun and filled with useful stuff and don't really have these problems.

But the 4E forum is different because it's essentially powerless. It's the airings of hopes and grievances to the indifferent heavens, that concerns may possibly be answered. So there isn't any sharing to be done, really, just trying to "win" arguments in the hopes that they'll have an impact. You're not going to be able to change the spirit of this here, in this sub-forum. The best you can do is kind of keep a lid on it.

...by the way, this place doesn't have real trolls like you see elsewhere. The mods are far too sensitive to allow such personalities to emerge (which is good).

 

[Cadfan]

QFT.

QFT

 

[JohnSnow]

I hate to say it, be we've become just like a Star Wars forum with one camp refusing to see anything positive about the prequels and leaping on every opportunity to tell people who like them how terrible the movies are, and the camp of those who like the prequel films leaping on everyone who criticizes them.

It always takes two sides, but in my experience, it's usually the "bashers"/haters who start the whole thing going. Not by expressing their opinions or voicing criticism, but by the thinly-veiled insults that they express indirectly. Many of the posts have an unspoken "and you must be an idiot if you actually like this crap" or "your tastes are not as refined as my own" or other equally condescending tone. And because of this, every negative opinion is taken this way in very short order and everyone on the other side gets defensive now the haters "must be stupid if they can't see the positive qualities."

People at both extremes are prone to threadcrapping once passions start to heat up, and it doesn't really matter who started the whole thing at that point.

If all that you can contribute to a discussion is a snide remark that essentially says one of:

"You're obviously less intelligent than I am."
"Well, your tastes just aren't as refined as mine yet."
"When you've been playing as long as I have, you'll see things differently."
"If you were willing to put as much time and effort into the game as I do, you'd see things differently."
"Well, if a dumbed-down approach appeals to you, you're welcome to it."
"If you weren't so afraid of change, you'd appreciate why this works better."
"Well, if those are the books/movies/whatever that you like, it's no wonder you think this way."

then don't say anything.

No, no. A real troll doesn't say those things.

Instead of saying "Well, if a dumbed-down approach appeals to you, you're welcome to it,"

a real troll would say, "I'm growing concerned that 4e is adopting a dumbed down approach to D&D designed to appeal to a generation of gamers raised on World of Warcraft."

See, now you're not talking about anyone in particular (so no mod problems! yay!) but you've managed to insult everyone who likes 4e AND everyone who likes World of Warcraft, all in one shot.

Post that enough times, and eventually somebody will say something rude to you and get banned. Glee!

A true super ninja meta troll doesn't even say that. He just quotes someone else who DID say that, and writes "QFT."

These two posts, in my mind, sum up the problem nicely. We have people (on both sides actually) making ad hominem attacks against large groups by inference. When a person in the attacked group eventually gets fed up and calls out the offending party, it seems they are the ones who get in trouble for it.

It has not helped the situation to occasionally see moderators, who are entitled to have an opinion, not enforcing strict neutrality. To whit, a mod who is himself anti-4e seems more likely to penalize the pro-4e party than the anti-4e guy making the ad hominem attack. And vice versa.

None of this is conducive to civil discourse. Moreover, and I've been guilty of this myself a time or two, we should all realize that if people react negatively to what we've said, and our response to them is to "lighten up," it's quite possible it's our own rhetoric that needs adjusting, and NOT their attitude.

I guess the only suggestion I can make is that the ops should peruse the thread thoroughly and call people out by name. Make sure to include the person who first started making ad hominem attacks (whether it's "WoW fanboyz" or "grognardz") and not just the people who bit back directly.

Public shame is usually a pretty good control mechanism.

 

[Garnfellow]

EDIT: To put it another way, the possibility that you will be publicly shamed, and/or possibly get your teeth knocked in, justifiably so, works far better towards discouraging anti-social behavior than the knowledge that there is a forum where your wack-job opinions will be welcomed and officially protected.

I really think Wulf is on to something here, though I don't think it offers a solution for ENWorld.

Up until six months ago, I have never really understood the purpose of all the Nutkinland/Nothingland/Circvs Maximvs variants. Over the years I've checked them all out, sampled a few threads, but never really understood the point. Occasionally I would see some good stuff, but I kept asking myself the same question: Do I really need to use poopy words to talk about my half-elf bard character? And do I really need that so badly that I have to go to a special D&D board where such naughtiness is allowed?

But I've found, over the last six months, much better discussion of 4e over at Circvs Maximvs, where Gramma's gone and it's no holds barred. And I think that's directly due to the fact that really, truly stupid stuff gets called out for ridicule, and quickly.

I think ENWorld's signature politeness -- normally, a wonderful thing -- can become a detriment during really uncertain periods like the one we're experiencing right now. The politeness allows some low-grade stupidity to perpetuate on and on and on and on. Individually, maybe none of these types of posts rise to bannable or even warnable offenses, but cumulatively it drags the whole discourse down.

I think it's a temporary but very unfortunate situation. The only suggestion I would have would be to wield the banhammer earlier and more often. It's not Gramma's way, but I don't know what else could be done.

 

[GeorgeFields]

I have to admit the thin skin some have to the point of telling the mods really surprises me. From BOTH sides even. It's like Billy telling on Johnny at school when Johnny said Mary is ugly, and Billy thinks she pretty.

I'll admit I may have fanned the flames a bit; but I've received it, too. In all that, I've never felt the need to complain to the mods. They've got better things to do than babysit.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The single basis of all? I think not - Civilization has many legs: our tribal-based altruistic behavior patterns, and cognitive abilities leading to the application of enlightened self-interest also have major parts to play.

Uh huh.

You show me a tribal-based altruistic behavior pattern and cognitivie abilities leading to the application of enlightened self-interest, and I'll show you two trogs with enough sense not to get the kicked out of them by three trogs.