D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Bagpuss]

All the "they are evil" bit does is say to players "therefore it is fine to kill all of them".

D&D has an alignment system, for better or worse. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation most of the time.

Are Orcs evil because they have a culture based on rampaging and pillage, or do they rampage and pillage because they are evil?

In D&D lore they are Evil intrinsically and thus have a culture that reflects that. In Tolkien as well they reflected not a particular race of people but that aspect of all humanity that is brutal, destructive and see strength as justification to do what they like. They are the worst of us, thus evil. If they weren't evil they wouldn't be the worst of us, and they wouldn't be orcs.

I.e., The takeaway lesson is: "if people are raised in a culture we find morally objectionable it's okay to kill them". A pretty solid justification for Islamophobia.

Not really as people are more complex than, individual metaphors for brutality which the orcs represent. People are capable of change, as can their culture even if you find it morally objectionable. Metaphors are incapable of change and still remain the thing they are a metaphor, for.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

D&D has an alignment system, for better or worse. It is a bit of a chicken and egg situation most of the time.

For worse. It doesn't have to have an alignment system. It works perfectly well without it.

Are Orcs evil because they have a culture based on rampaging and pillage, or do they rampage and pillage because they are evil?

In D&D lore they are Evil intrinsically and thus have a culture that reflects that. In Tolkien as well they reflected not a particular race of people but that aspect of all humanity that is brutal, destructive and see strength as justification to do what they like. They are the worst of us, thus evil. If they weren't evil they wouldn't be the worst of us, and the wouldn't be orcs.

Tolkien dehumanised orcs in the same way he dehumanised the Germans he had to kill during the war. It's the way people protect themselves from being crushed by overwhelming guilt. Sam's thoughts on seeing a dead human (voiced by Faramir in the movie) shows he knew it wasn't true.

Not really as people are more complex than, individual metaphors for brutality which the orcs represent. People are capable of change, as can their culture even if you find it morally objectionable. Metaphors are incapable of change and still remain the thing they are a metaphor, for.

That's a different argument to the one you used previously. Are orcs "raised in a different culture" or are they a metaphor? Or, are they a metaphor for "people raised in a different culture"? The distinction is not clear - perhaps why Tolkien disliked allegory so much - it's open to alternative interpretations.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't think GW cares that much as long as they sell more stuff.

Bigger problems for them is edition churn imho and their franchise is inherently limited.

Game Workshop does care now a LOT.
They scrubbed a lot of their old lore and put out statements that caused huge waves in their customer base.

 

[Bagpuss]

You don't need to replace them, you just need to stop calling them evil.

Why? They do evil naughty word, they are evil. Should we start calling them misunderstood humanoids?

 

[Bagpuss]

For worse. It doesn't have to have an alignment system. It works perfectly well without it.

Works pretty well with it, and it is a useful tool for the sort of heroic stories that D&D is about.

Tolkien dehumanised orcs in the same way he dehumanised the Germans he had to kill during the war. It's the way people protect themselves from being crushed by overwhelming guilt. Sam's thoughts on seeing a dead human (voiced by Faramir in the movie) shows he knew it wasn't true.

Right so what your saying is players should instead be crushed by overwhelming guilt when they go round killing orcs? Sounds like fun game... not sure it will catch on as well but you do you.

That's a different argument to the one you used previously. Are orcs "raised in a different culture" or are they a metaphor? Or, are they a metaphor for "people raised in a different culture"? The distinction is not clear - perhaps why Tolkien disliked allegory so much - it's open to alternative interpretations.

Not sure it is, I don't think orcs are evil because of their culture, I think their culture is evil because they are evil.

 

[Remathilis]

Having antagonists who are antagonistic "because they are evil" is lazy story telling. Remove evil from the game and the DM has to come up with a better reason why the PCs are fighting X.

Yes, let's replace the anachronistic model of "good vs evil" with the complex web of economic, political, sociological, geographic and religious reasons why groups go to war.

 

[Oofta]

Having antagonists who are antagonistic "because they are evil" is lazy story telling. Remove evil from the game and the DM has to come up with a better reason why the PCs are fighting X.

So? Not everyone is interested in writing dramatic campaigns with the depth of The Catcher in the Rye. Some people (including myself frequently) want a lazy option.

It's a game and frequently is played as pure escapism from the complexity of the real world.

 

[Bagpuss]

Having antagonists who are antagonistic "because they are evil" is lazy story telling. Remove evil from the game and the DM has to come up with a better reason why the PCs are fighting X.

You know what a lot of us are lazy, we don't play D&D to create great works of fiction, we do it to meet up with friends, share a laugh, slay a dragon and maybe a few orcs along the way. And there is nothing wrong with that.

We don't go thinking hmm these orcs actually represent an oppressed group in society (because they don't), we don't want to think that maybe that orc I just killed was press ganged into fighting by the other orcs, like Czech soldiers in Saving Private Ryan because we aren't into the soul searching and we aren't looking for an Oscar or to tell a complex story. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Yes, let's replace the anachronistic model of "good vs evil" with the complex web of economic, political, sociological, geographic and religious reasons why groups go to war.

Ain't got time for that... (well at least most of the time).

And even if I did I don't play D&D for that (if other people want to fine).

 

[Emerikol]

I don't think reflecting a racist culture inside a game necessarily makes the players racist.

Here is an example. Let's just suppose there was a historical Roman Noble roleplaying game where you vied to move up the political ladder in Rome and you had various historical adventures as you did so. When you roleplayed these Roman Noble's you might be in a position to own slaves. If you did would you be a racist? You might be in a position to oppress foreign peoples like the Gauls or Brittons or Greeks or whatever. Would you be a bad person for role playing someone in the Roman era with Roman values?

I think the context here is that orcs are and have been brutal killers of humans for a long time. On the frontiers they regularly raid and kill families etc... Could there be some scholar in an ivory tower in the center of a might city who wonders if orcs could change? Yes absolutely. Will those hardy people fighting for survival on the edge of the wilderness going to shoot first and ask questions later if they see an orc? They are. We all value and benefit from culture and civilization. We also must realize that when incredible stresses are applied people will become very tribal and very brutal.

So obviously, on a case by case basis I am open to revising anything some deem racist after reviewing it. We want to be inclusive. I think most of the old school books though are fine. They are not riddled with racist elements.

And having a world where some groups are viewed as hostile to humans most of the time is not racist. In those situations, the humans will be hostile right back. The result will sometimes be bad from a civilized perspective but it is the truth about the world.

 

[Oofta]

The villains of my setting are outright fiend or aberration worshippers.

So the villains are evil in your campaign because they follow the wrong religion?

You don't see how that is just as (or more) problematic?