D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Wishbone]

Oh of course. It was 100% good business sense. It is the same reason that they made the changes they did in 2E. It was good business sense THEN too. Its all about perspective and presentation and the almighty dollar.

Consequentialism would say removing antisemitism, racism, and gender inequality is a net good regardless of specific intentions though. (Not that I subscribe to that philosophical school but to make a point.)

 

[Umbran]

Not a concern: “D&D will influence people to be more racist than they currently are.”

A concern: “Racism is an ongoing systemic issue, and D&D is currently an uncritical participant in that system.”

The point where you cause confusion is when you hit "harmful stereotype". You agreed that the harm is that such stereotypes negatively influence the player to be more okay with such attitudes.

So, you say it is not a concern that people will be influenced, but that the harm is that people are influenced. This appears to be a contradiction.

 

[HJFudge]

Consequentialism would say removing antisemitism, racism, and gender inequality is a net good regardless of specific intentions though. (Not that I subscribe to that philosophical school but to make a point.)

I confess I am not that familiar with consequentialism.

Is the argument that "Because antisemitism/racism/gender inequality is removed in D&D lore, there will be a good done to (on?) society"?

 

[Charlaquin]

The point where you cause confusion is when you hit "harmful stereotype". You agreed that the harm is that such stereotypes negatively influence the player to be more okay with such attitudes.

Did I agree to that? I don’t remember doing so. Some stereotypes are intrinsically harmful. Perpetuating them is generally not a good thing. This is a separate concern from “the contents of this book will make people more ok with these stereotypes.”

So, you say it is not a concern that people will be influenced, but that the harm is that people are influenced. This appears to be a contradiction.

Did I say it’s not a concern that D&D influences people? I don’t remember doing that either. I don’t think it’s a concern that D&D will make people more racist. Thats a tremendous oversimplification of a much more nuanced phenomenon of art influencing culture.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes, and stuff like that is being addressed, or I assume will be.

Oh no doubt it is lazy.

But is it harmful? He was not just claiming it was lazy. His statement was that this was doing actual harm. That it perpetuated stereotypes...I guess, I dont know, I dont have the adventure in front of me. Say that it does. In really weird ways. Okay.

Is his claim that because it did so, there is someone who of Romani descent who is suffering? Who has been belittled or talked down to or made fun of?

Shall, if we change it, we go to the Romani people and celebrate them that we have made a step in freeing them from the discrimination they now/once suffered?

That just seems foolish to me. At best. At worst, actively infantilizing.

There it is. That same old reversal.

I’ll give benefit of the doubt, though, and address this. A few points.

1. Being depicted in popular media via racist stereotypes, when one is part of a marginalized group, is harm. There are types and degrees of harm. Harm isn’t exclusively being physically attacked or denied service or whatever. This negative stereotyping in media is the same sort of thing as a person belittling me for being Queer or Hispanic or whatever. It is harm.

2. Media influences how people think, especially about things they have no prior knowledge of.

3. Being made to feel unwelcome in a community because of your race/religion/sex/identity is harm. Full stop.

4. Defending the desires of marginalized people to not have the bad guys of our game portrayed using the same language as their people, or whatever other specific issue we argue about on here, doesn’t infantilize anyone. In this thread, folks have referenced the activism of marginalized creators in the TTRPG community. They aren’t infantilizing themselves.
4a. The type of argument you’re making is generally called concern trolling, but it is also used frequently by extremist agitators as a form of aggressive rhetorical absurdity designed to make a mockery of the entire topic being discussed, and make it more difficult for their target to engage in a sensible discussion. I’m telling you this because I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren’t doing this intentionally, here.

 

[Wishbone]

I confess I am not that familiar with consequentialism.

Is the argument that "Because antisemitism/racism/gender inequality is removed in D&D lore, there will be a good done to (on?) society"?

Consequentialism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

 

[Haffrung]

Except one is based purely on emotional and religious grounds, while the other is actually based in psychological studies and science. The Satanic Panic doesn't work because it's entirely fueled by emotion. Could something influence you to second-guess church or that drugs might be alright? Absolutely. Was there any reason to this D&D would do that? No. That's the thing: there are things that D&D could influence you to do, like look up more fantasy fiction or get interested in magic or medieval history or creative fiction. D&D influences you! The problem with the Satanic Panic is that they illogically jumped to all these things they thought were bad.

There were child psychologists and mental health experts in the 80s contributing to the alarmism around D&D and fantasy. Parents were being warned that young people (let's be honest - young men) were detaching from normal, healthy society and becoming obsessed with immersing themselves in lurid, violent fantasy worlds.

It wasn't just fundamentalist preachers arrayed against sword and sorcery, heavy metal, etc. A lot of well-intentioned, educated people believed young men were falling prey to their worst instincts of morbid fantasy and self-indulgence, and that adults in authority had a responsibility to save them from themselves. The producers of D&D, fantasy novels, heavy metal music, etc were seen to be polluting vulnerable minds with unhealthy fictions and imagery that contributing to anti-social behaviour. There were suicides linked to both D&D and heavy metal. So child welfare advocates certainly had (or felt they had) proof of the real consequences of the media they were against. Terrible and real harm.

 

[Charlaquin]

I confess I am not that familiar with consequentialism.

Is the argument that "Because antisemitism/racism/gender inequality is removed in D&D lore, there will be a good done to (on?) society"?

In short, consequentialism is a school of thought that says outcomes matter more than intent. A bad thing done for good reasons is bad. A good thing done for bad reasons is good. The consequentialist argument here is, if WotC makes changes to D&D for the purpose of financial gain, and those changes have positive outcomes, it doesn’t really matter that they were motivated by financial gain. Outcomes over intent.

 

[HJFudge]

In short, consequentialism is a school of thought that says outcomes matter more than intent. A bad thing done for good reasons is bad. A good thing done for bad reasons is good. The consequentialist argument here is, if WotC makes changes to D&D for the purpose of financial gain, and those changes have positive outcomes, it doesn’t really matter that they were motivated by financial gain. Outcomes over intent.

Okay. Thank you for the explanation (and the other poster for the link). I understand a bit better now the argument.

 

[Zardnaar]

There were child psychologists and mental health experts in the 80s contributing to the alarmism around D&D and fantasy. Parents were being warned that young people (let's be honest - young men) were detaching from normal, healthy society and becoming obsessed with immersing themselves in lurid, violent fantasy worlds.

It wasn't just fundamentalist preachers arrayed against sword and sorcery, heavy metal, etc. A lot well-intentioned, educated people believed young men were falling prey to their worst instincts of morbid fantasy and self-indulgence, and that adults in authority had a responsibility to save them from themselves. The producers of D&D, fantasy novels, heavy metal music, etc were seen to be polluting vulnerable minds with unhealthy fictions and imagery that contributing to anti-social behaviour. There were suicides linked to both D&D and heavy metal. So child welfare advocates certainly had (or felt they had) proof of the real consequences of the media they were against. Terrible and real harm.

To be fair a lot if people listening to metal in the 80s went on to grunge etc in the 90's with that F you attitude.

And NWA type rap as well same era.

Wonder if anyone did long term studies in that.
I remember a female player in the 90's getting very pissed at a couple of players playing gangsta rap in the back ground.