D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[MGibster]

Which is a problematic setup, that dnd has moved away from, for the better. Even DDO, which has the Keep on The Borderlands as a starter adventure option, draws lines between the Cult of Elemental Evil or whatever, and the regular "monster" folk of the region.

I don't find it particularly problematic though I share your sentiment that moving away from such a setup is better.

 

[MGibster]

I mean, if that works for people given your execution, okay? I just typically not try to casually toss in stuff like racism without thinking about why I'm doing it.

Who does? I imagine any author who adds that element to their setting is doing so for a reason. It might not be a reason you or I find satisfactory but it's a reason. You say someone needs to be able to justify adding such elements to their setting. What constitutes justification in your opinion?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Feel free to believe so. An Orc is no more a Human, than a Gnoll, Flayer, Succubus, Warforged, or Solar. If you are going to justify one, do so for the rest, or simply accept that your view on Orcs should apply to everything, its much easier.

pretending that there is not an obvious, fundemental, difference between orcs, humans, gnolls, etc, and fiends and celestials, is completely absurd.

One set of beings are species of folks. They are born, they die, they raise children and make art and have souls and free will. They other aren't.

More importantly, this sort of category error absolutism crap doesn't reflect what people are actually talking about. Orcs are problematic because of their description. Devils are not described as a race of people, and their description doesn't match any racist stereotypes in the real world.

 

[Argyle King]

I mean, I think there are plenty of ways to put prejudice into a fantasy world, but it should always be well-considered and not done gratuitously. The biggest thing to remember is whatever you put in has to be justified by you and not the fiction.

To some extent I agree. At the same time, some of these discussions get to a point where I feel myself questioning why the fiction exists if it is to serve no tangible purpose.

Certainly, as I've said previously, I do not believe game design is a curtain behind which prejudiced producers of content should be allowed to hide.

At the same time, is there logical validity to illustrating how a differently-functioning fantasy world approaches day-to-day life? I think so, but that view appears to be offensive to some.

Do I think I would be prejudice against Tieflings? No, I don't believe I would be. When I look around the table at people with whom I game, we're honestly sorta weirdos in comparison to societal norms. So, I'm pretty open-minded to hanging out with folks who look, live, and love differently.

Can I understand how/why people in a fantasy world might be suspicious of a demon-blooded person -in a world where demons tangibly exist and go on murderous rampages? Yeah; it's not a default position I would have myself, but I can understand it. That's a situation fictionally created using hypothetical elements of beings which are said to have no choice but to be evil; to me, that's a very different set of circumstances than "these people look and speak differently."

Do I believe there are/were producers of content who use the veil of fantasy to explore their prejudiced ideals? Sure I do. I don't even need to look to fantasy gaming to see that. I can turn to certain "news" stations and see it.

Do I believe that a writer incorporating elements of prejudice into a story containing demon-blooded people proves they are some sort of -ist, -phobe, or so-on? No. Maybe they are, but I do not believe that is a reasonable default assumption right out of the gate.

 

[Oofta]

Feel free to believe so. An Orc is no more a Human, than a Gnoll, Flayer, Succubus, Warforged, or Solar. If you are going to justify one, do so for the rest, or simply accept that your view on Orcs should apply to everything, its much easier.

I also think there's an overlying assumption that some people truly identify with orcs but not other creatures. I have never heard that claim in person, I don't know of anyone who has proven otherwise. The source of the blogosphere complaints doesn't seem to come from people that (in theory) would identify with orcs. Then again, I don't pay a lot of attention to the blogosphere.

Everything else is just "orcs look a lot more like people than these other creatures so they're different". That form follows function, which to me is a bias. The mind behind the mask is what should matter, not the physical implementation.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I have more to say to your post, but this right here:

So you are claiming that because Vistani (a fake culture in a fake game) are portrayed as a certain way in D&D that real life people, specifically those of Romani descent, are suffering real life harm?

Im gonna have to ask you to back that up. This strains credulity.

I am "claiming" that Vistani are an amalgamation of nearly all of the negative stereotypes of the Romani people, and that is inherently harmful to both the Romani people and the hobby. A Romani person that recognizes this in the Vistani of Ravenloft (which many have), they will undoubtedly be justified in feeling uncomfortable playing a game that depicts their people and culture as these stereotypes. Harm does not have to be physical.

 

[Oofta]

pretending that there is not an obvious, fundemental, difference between orcs, humans, gnolls, etc, and fiends and celestials, is completely absurd.

One set of beings are species of folks. They are born, they die, they raise children and make art and have souls and free will. They other aren't.

More importantly, this sort of category error absolutism crap doesn't reflect what people are actually talking about. Orcs are problematic because of their description. Devils are not described as a race of people, and their description doesn't match any racist stereotypes in the real world.

To you. I also think saying that orcs are people is absurd.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To you. I also think saying that orcs are people is absurd.

Okay?

 

[jmartkdr2]

Is "This is the story I want to tell" a reasonable justification?

It is, or it's half of one, depending on your views of free speech. (the half-answer being "if the story you want to tell isn't morally repugnant on its own merits.")

 

[Justice and Rule]

Who does? I imagine any author who adds that element to their setting is doing so for a reason. It might not be a reason you or I find satisfactory but it's a reason. You say someone needs to be able to justify adding such elements to their setting. What constitutes justification in your opinion?

That the conflict has meaning and serves some greater purpose the story and setting I'm trying to weave. I should be asking "Does this situation need a racial conflict? Does it add something interesting or thoughtful?" so that it isn't just gratuitous. For me I like to think that if someone from outside my group were to watch and see what I did, they'd not be offended or think I was taking the subject lightly.

To some extent I agree. At the same time, some of these discussions get to a point where I feel myself questioning why the fiction exists if it is to serve no tangible purpose.

Certainly, as I've said previously, I do not believe game design is a curtain behind which prejudiced producers of content should be allowed to hide.

At the same time, is there logical validity to illustrating how a differently-functioning fantasy world approaches day-to-day life.

Do I think I would be prejudice against Tieflings? No, I don't believe I would be. When I look around the table at people with whom I game, we're honestly sorta weirdos in comparison to societal norms. So, I'm pretty open-minded to hanging out with folks who look, live, and love differently.

Can I understand how/why people in a fantasy world might be suspicious of a demon-blooded person -in a world where demons tangibly exist and go on murderous rampages? Yeah; it's not a default position I would have myself, but I can understand it. That's a situation fictionally created using hypothetical elements of beings which are said to have no choice but to be evil; to me, that's a very different set of circumstances than "these people look and speak differently."

Do I believe there are/were producers of content who use the veil of fantasy to explore their prejudiced ideals? Sure I do. I don't even need to look to fantasy gaming to see that. I can turn to certain "news" stations and see it.

Do I believe that a writer incorporating elements of prejudice into a story containing demon-blooded people proves they are some sort of -ist, -phobe, or so-on? No. Maybe they are, but I do not believe that is a reasonable default assumption right out of the gate.

Sure, I think you just have to be ready to deal with the implications of the issues and have your own personal justifications rather than just saying "The setting is the setting, it justifies itself", aka the Thermian Argument.