D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Oofta]

You can remove the locales pretty easily. The difference between "tribe" and "clan" orcs has meat on it.

And honestly, I find it hard to believe they are more boring than "generic bloodthirsty barbarian race".

You may think they're better. I see nothing that sets them apart. Like I said upthread, orcs are the ravaging horde, more intelligent that zombies, dangerous in large numbers. I don't use them often but if I did they would be the red tide of savagery that cannot be negotiated with.

At least that gives them an identity more than "religious" people that are affected by the (very specific to Eberron) region they live in. I find Eberron orcs boring. You don't. So?

In any case ... nothing new here. Either they will change in the future or they will not. They're just one of many, many monsters in the book and I don't see any reason to modify the default behavior or alignment.

There should probably be a big section in the DMG that talks about how to tweak culture, change alignment, what default alignment can mean to different groups and so on. Some of the wording could be tweaked. If you allow playable "monstrous" races they shouldn't have ability score penalties and so on.

 

[Mind of tempest]

You may think they're better. I see nothing that sets them apart. Like I said upthread, orcs are the ravaging horde, more intelligent that zombies, dangerous in large numbers. I don't use them often but if I did they would be the red tide of savagery that cannot be negotiated with.

At least that gives them an identity more than "religious" people that are affected by the (very specific to Eberron) region they live in. I find Eberron orcs boring. You don't. So?

In any case ... nothing new here. Either they will change in the future or they will not. They're just one of many, many monsters in the book and I don't see any reason to modify the default behavior or alignment.

There should probably be a big section in the DMG that talks about how to tweak culture, change alignment, what default alignment can mean to different groups and so on. Some of the wording could be tweaked. If you allow playable "monstrous" races they shouldn't have ability score penalties and so on.

okay what makes the horde so good to you as I am seeing something destroyed by landmine spells.

 

[HJFudge]

Behaviors? No. Attitudes? Yes.

I have read a little bit more, doing some deep dives on some studies and such, the links provided gave me a lot to think about.

Actually researching it was a bit difficult until I came across the TERM for this though: Cultivation Theory. The idea that media has long term effects on attitudes rather than behaviors.

Here is an interesting link: Cultivation Theory

The TL;DR though is that it is a theory that some people subscribe to, but it does have some serious criticisms leveled against it.

Whether it be video game violence:

http://interpersonalresearch.weebly.com/uploads/1/0/4/0/10405979/ppmc_-_vvgs_and_real-world_violence.pdf

News making you think the world is more violent:

https://christopherjferguson.com/Murder%20She%20Watched.pdf

TV shows effecting suicide rates

Annenberg research paper finds no correlation between teen suicide and ‘13 Reasons Why'

Annenberg Public Policy Center Research Director Dan Romer published a study that found no correlation between the release of the Netflix show

www.thedp.com

Sexualization in media

https://christopherjferguson.com/The%20Devil%20Wears%20Stata.pdf

Hell, even the portrayal of smoking as having an effect on teen smoking rates, the actual data backing that widely made claim is THIN

https://christopherjferguson.com/Movies%20and%20Smoking.pdf

There are specific studies on how roleplaying games actually improve players positive moral development as well, DESPITE 'racial coding' as is claimed

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

 

[Oofta]

okay what makes the horde so good to you as I am seeing something destroyed by landmine spells.

Not when they come in the hundreds if not thousands. Besides, they are thinking zombies. So after the first time you pull that trick they have human slaves they've captured going in front as mine detectors.

If you don't like them don't use them or propose a better option.

 

[Charlaquin]

There are specific studies on how roleplaying games actually improve players positive moral development as well, DESPITE 'racial coding' as is claimed

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

Of course RPGs are good for moral development. Roleplaying is an extremely effective tool for developing empathy. Nobody is claiming playing RPGs makes you racist, which is why comparisons to the Satanic Panic (which absolutely claimed playing RPGs makes you worship the Devil) are ridiculous. What people are saying is, let’s maybe stop normalizing racial essentialist narratives in our games of make-believe.

 

[Mallus]

Illithuds probably smart enough to figure out how to reproduce in other way. Cloning perhaps.

1. Hire some unscrupulous druids to Awaken cows and pigs.
2. Lay brain-eggs in now-sentient cows and pigs.
3. Guilt-trip any non-vegetarian humans & humanoids who hassle them over it.
4. Profit!

 

[Zardnaar]

1. Hire some unscrupulous druids to Awaken cows and pigs.
2. Lay brain-eggs in now-sentient cows and pigs.
3. Guilt-trip any non-vegetarian humans & humanoids who hassle them over it.
4. Profit!

Still evil because they're now sentient.

Makes human-illithid relations better. But I think it has to be certain humanoids not any. At least in other editions.

As for eating it depends on the species/race and options they have. If a race has to eAt humans idk if that's evil or not if they have the choice to eat humans or whatever it's a bit different.

That giant ant? Humans just another source of protein. Jon evil illithids is going to struggle a lot.

 

[Azzy]

How much page count do you want in the MM? What will be enough? We have what, 600-700 words on orcs in just the PHB?

A lot of what's there is just padding that could easily be replaced.

Throw in other campaigns, VGtM there's probably a few thousand words. When is enough enough?

A lot of which could be replaced.

Besides this level of detail this style has worked for half a century and the game is more popular than ever. I'd say the burden of proof is on those that want to throw it all away.

Has it worked, really? In several settings orcs and such already are a bit more nuanced (as already mentioned by another poster) or are entirely dropped. The chaotic evil barbarian orcs are of a more recent vintage—orcs were originally lawful evil in AD&D and served a mercenaries quite a bit in Greyhawk. In Mystara, various humanoid races were presented as playable, not all evil, and slightly humorous. Why the resistance to put in the PHB and MM the nuance that's been availble in different settings? That way new players don't have to wonder why a setting's humanoids are different than some absolutist, problematic default.

 

[Oofta]

A lot of what's there is just padding that could easily be replaced.

A lot of which could be replaced.

Has it worked, really? In several settings orcs and such already are a bit more nuanced (as already mentioned by another poster) or are entirely dropped. The chaotic evil barbarian orcs are of a more recent vintage—orcs were originally lawful evil in AD&D and served a mercenaries quite a bit in Greyhawk. In Mystara, various humanoid races were presented as playable, not all evil, and slightly humorous. Why the resistance to put in the PHB and MM the nuance that's been availble in different settings? That way new players don't have to wonder why a setting's humanoids are different than some absolutist, problematic default.

If you want orcs to be just humans with bad dental work go for it. I don't see the point. If you can explain how they can fill a niche without being just a different human ethnicity feel free to share.

Until then, have a good one.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I have read a little bit more, doing some deep dives on some studies and such, the links provided gave me a lot to think about.

Actually researching it was a bit difficult until I came across the TERM for this though: Cultivation Theory. The idea that media has long term effects on attitudes rather than behaviors.

Here is an interesting link: Cultivation Theory

The TL;DR though is that it is a theory that some people subscribe to, but it does have some serious criticisms leveled against it.

Whether it be video game violence:

http://interpersonalresearch.weebly.com/uploads/1/0/4/0/10405979/ppmc_-_vvgs_and_real-world_violence.pdf

News making you think the world is more violent:

https://christopherjferguson.com/Murder%20She%20Watched.pdf

TV shows effecting suicide rates

Annenberg research paper finds no correlation between teen suicide and ‘13 Reasons Why'

Annenberg Public Policy Center Research Director Dan Romer published a study that found no correlation between the release of the Netflix show

www.thedp.com

Sexualization in media

https://christopherjferguson.com/The%20Devil%20Wears%20Stata.pdf

Hell, even the portrayal of smoking as having an effect on teen smoking rates, the actual data backing that widely made claim is THIN

https://christopherjferguson.com/Movies%20and%20Smoking.pdf

Very nice studies, though I'd feel better if Dr. Ferguson didn't seem to dominate the list here.

There are specific studies on how roleplaying games actually improve players positive moral development as well, DESPITE 'racial coding' as is claimed

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.

journals.sagepub.com

I mean, first off this is not good for your point: it's showing that roleplaying games can actually influence attitude and moral formation.

Secondly, this doesn't talk about "racial coding" at all: it's about putting people into different moral situations, like torturing someone for information.

An interesting study, nonetheless.