Breakdaddy
First Post
EDIT: Post Deleted. Wasnt advancing the topic at hand.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
'Old School' Experiences with D&D 3.5
- Thread starter Melkor
- Start date
Melan
Explorer
I wrote this reply offline , so forgive me if the following has already been said. Much of my advice is edition-neutral, and reflect my views on old school gaming – others will probably disagree with some or all of my points. So there. 
1. Restrictions, not options: 3e is designed to allow PCs to create any PC they could dream of, and provides several tools for such customization. PCs are often constructed to reflect a character coming from a specific and highly individualized pre-written backstory. In old school games, character choice is based on dice rolls, and the player has to build a character on his or her “god-given” abilities (as per the 1e PHB, p. 7.). Encourage character creation to be quick, focusing on a restricted array of races and classes, and work out details as play progresses. PCs should start as a “blank slate” and develop a background and personality through the events of the campaign. It might be a good idea to use 4d6 in order for stat generation (or two such arrays if you are generous), and restrict runaway multiclassing with a strict XP penalty. Actually, you should encourage the players to play single-class characters. Don’t allow prestige classes or extra-PHB feats and skills. Don't allow sorcerers either.
2. Nature versus Nurture: old school games are strongly Darwinian. The lucky and the shrewd survive and become stronger, the weak and foolish perish. Do not populate the world with “appropriate challenges”. Populate the world with a lot of random, cool stuff. That doesn’t mean you should put undetectable deathtraps in a starter dungeon, but if the PCs disregard ominous clues, they should “suffer greatly”™. For example, if they venture too deep into a dungeon, it is fair to let them encounter a basilisk or a young dragon, or a higher level Wizard, NO MATTER how high level they are. In such situations, cunning or a speedy retreat may still prevail, but there is a good chance PCs will die, often in great numbers. So be it, dying is fun and makes fun war stories later on. At the low levels, it is perfectly normal if PC turnover is high, with casualties every session or so. Getting and playing a PC to higher levels becomes more of a reward if it is not guaranteed. Thus, do not fudge, do not hold back the fury of Hell (extreme cases notwithstanding).
3. Slow character progression. Necromancer Games developed an alternate XP table where the XP goals for each level are doubled, e.g. 2000 XP for level two, 2000+4000=6000 for level three, 6000+6000=12000 for level four, etc. In my experience with my 3.0 campaigns, the formula works pretty neatly, especially coupled with the aforementioned attrition factor.
4. Blatant materialism: PCs should be fortune-seekers out for adventure and wealth. Avoid grand quests, especially until the PCs reach high levels (that’s 9th and up in old school games, BTW). Focus on greed, power acquisition and even extreme selfishness. Let the world be a foe itself, an impersonal and materialistic entity that seeks the PCs’ downfall. Adapt a somewhat antagonistic attitude (but still play fair). Even gods should be anthropomorphic and predictably egoistic instead of inscrutable and based on abstract human ideals. They are, after all, merely very high level characters, who may be more powerful than you, but possess the same character flaws. [Note: many 1e campaigns used a more idealistic worldview, but I have found that this approach can make for a very fun old school experience.]
5. Chaos and unpredictability: don’t let the campaign fall into standard tropes. Do not aim to create a realistic feudal society, or even a too coherent setting. Focus on dreaming up crazed and improbable worlds where death and glory avaits in every corner of the world, from islands inhabited by crazed amazon queens to glaciers where frost-worms and ice demons dwell. When creating dungeons, feel free to disregard ecologies. A room with a cool trap is old school (and so are dungeons with extensive sub-levels, multiple connections and a ton of hidden areas), the tenth armory and barracks is not. Unexplained weirdness is old school as well (“What is that great stone head doing in the dungeon room?” “Why does that fountain generate an infinite number of skeletons?” “Who is the oracle of Blackstone Mountain?”). Let the PCs wonder and make up their own explanations.
6. Challenge the players, not the PCs: do not distill most challenges to a skill check. Everyone can roll dice, and it is fun, but too much of it can become boring. Create challenges where player judgement is the primary factor of the outcome (sometimes with a generous helping of pure chance). If you can get away with it, do away with all social skills such as Diplomacy and Bluff.
7. Stories are secondary, gaming is paramount: do not pre-plot adventures. It is fine to have an initial premise, but try to create settings, focusing on places the party can visit, and let them explore this environment as they wish. Give them a lot of self-contained side-areas to explore and experience (an abandoned tower, an island near the seacoast, a mountain renowned for its enchanted statues, etc.). Keep the action moving and prepare for a lot of improvisation. Exploring the wilderness and dungeons is just as fun as going on a quest. For some of us, it is more fun, even!
8. Monster and treasure selection: it is my experience that conservative monster and treasure selection is one of the key factors in the success of old school play. If you have the 1e Monster Manual I, you have a good baseline with enough “basic” monsters and weirdness to sustain most of a campaign. You don’t need more variety than that. Of course, feel free to create an advanced specimen or two (an orc chieftain who is a 6th level Fighter, or a giant lizard that has a fiery breath), but try to rely on what the book gives you. Don’t do too many templates. Lich and vampire are pretty much the only worthwhile ones in the 3e MM (maybe ghost as well); the rest is filler. Avoid two many spiky things or übermonsters. A horde of weak opponents is just as good as a “Big Bad”, and there is nothing like killing enemies by the dozens. A 6th level party can defeat 60-80 gnolls, maybe even more: that’s very 1e, too. The same goes for treasures. Some items feel very old school: +1 swords, potions of healing, wands of frost and horns of Valhalla. That sort of stuff.
9. Simple opponents: you do not have to – indeed, you should not – create highly specific opponents for your PCs. A half-fiend necromancer is superfluous and even silly. A 7th level human Wizard who can cast fireballs is enough. A beholder is enough. Five evil fighters and an evil cleric are enough. A half-orc assassin (the nonmagical type, such as a 7th level rogue) is enough. All of these are sufficient for an exciting campaign. Don’t overdo it. In fact, a certain simplicity is a benefit for old school campaigns.
10. 10th level is high level. In traditional AD&D, 1st to 4th level could be considered low level, 5th to 8th mid-level and anything above that high level. A 10th level PC is already a great hero – a Lord, a High Priest, a Master Wizard or a Master Thief (again, as per the level titles in the 1e PHB). If the PCs have achieved that level, it is time for them to go into semi-retirement. There is a good reason for slow advancement, because the adventurers aren’t supposed to really reach those very high levels. If you can cast Raise Dead, Teleport and the like, you are already at the top of the heap. Accordingly, most NPCs should obey the same rules. If the master of a city is a 7th level Thief, that’s good enough. Added bonus: in this environment, PCs can more easily become people of note.
+1. Do not be apologetic. Old school does not have to be a guilty pleasure, but many people treat it that way. Avoid this pitfall. Old school gaming is fun, AD&Dism have an important role in the feel of the game, and to Hell with those who would deny their greatness. There is nothing wrong with memorization, there is nothing wrong with strictly defined and restrictive classes, there is nothing wrong with dungeons or unplotted campaigns. Not at all – all of these are a lot of fun, and they should be embraced and understood instead of rejected as “bad game design” or “nostalgic appeal”.
Following the above advice (or some of it), you can run a meaningful old school campaign. I did so for about four years – eventually switched to Castles and Crusades, but I do not think my experiences with 3e were bad or anything, or that it is impossible to use 3e to run an old school game. But you have to be firm in some areas, and be prepared to make a few hard choices, including cutting back player freedoms and perks 3e tends to dole out a bit too frequently. That, in my opinion, is the hardest part of it all. If you have a party who understands your aims and cooperates, you won’t have too many problems. Otherwise, it will be an uphill battle.
1. Restrictions, not options: 3e is designed to allow PCs to create any PC they could dream of, and provides several tools for such customization. PCs are often constructed to reflect a character coming from a specific and highly individualized pre-written backstory. In old school games, character choice is based on dice rolls, and the player has to build a character on his or her “god-given” abilities (as per the 1e PHB, p. 7.). Encourage character creation to be quick, focusing on a restricted array of races and classes, and work out details as play progresses. PCs should start as a “blank slate” and develop a background and personality through the events of the campaign. It might be a good idea to use 4d6 in order for stat generation (or two such arrays if you are generous), and restrict runaway multiclassing with a strict XP penalty. Actually, you should encourage the players to play single-class characters. Don’t allow prestige classes or extra-PHB feats and skills. Don't allow sorcerers either.
2. Nature versus Nurture: old school games are strongly Darwinian. The lucky and the shrewd survive and become stronger, the weak and foolish perish. Do not populate the world with “appropriate challenges”. Populate the world with a lot of random, cool stuff. That doesn’t mean you should put undetectable deathtraps in a starter dungeon, but if the PCs disregard ominous clues, they should “suffer greatly”™. For example, if they venture too deep into a dungeon, it is fair to let them encounter a basilisk or a young dragon, or a higher level Wizard, NO MATTER how high level they are. In such situations, cunning or a speedy retreat may still prevail, but there is a good chance PCs will die, often in great numbers. So be it, dying is fun and makes fun war stories later on. At the low levels, it is perfectly normal if PC turnover is high, with casualties every session or so. Getting and playing a PC to higher levels becomes more of a reward if it is not guaranteed. Thus, do not fudge, do not hold back the fury of Hell (extreme cases notwithstanding).
3. Slow character progression. Necromancer Games developed an alternate XP table where the XP goals for each level are doubled, e.g. 2000 XP for level two, 2000+4000=6000 for level three, 6000+6000=12000 for level four, etc. In my experience with my 3.0 campaigns, the formula works pretty neatly, especially coupled with the aforementioned attrition factor.
4. Blatant materialism: PCs should be fortune-seekers out for adventure and wealth. Avoid grand quests, especially until the PCs reach high levels (that’s 9th and up in old school games, BTW). Focus on greed, power acquisition and even extreme selfishness. Let the world be a foe itself, an impersonal and materialistic entity that seeks the PCs’ downfall. Adapt a somewhat antagonistic attitude (but still play fair). Even gods should be anthropomorphic and predictably egoistic instead of inscrutable and based on abstract human ideals. They are, after all, merely very high level characters, who may be more powerful than you, but possess the same character flaws. [Note: many 1e campaigns used a more idealistic worldview, but I have found that this approach can make for a very fun old school experience.]
5. Chaos and unpredictability: don’t let the campaign fall into standard tropes. Do not aim to create a realistic feudal society, or even a too coherent setting. Focus on dreaming up crazed and improbable worlds where death and glory avaits in every corner of the world, from islands inhabited by crazed amazon queens to glaciers where frost-worms and ice demons dwell. When creating dungeons, feel free to disregard ecologies. A room with a cool trap is old school (and so are dungeons with extensive sub-levels, multiple connections and a ton of hidden areas), the tenth armory and barracks is not. Unexplained weirdness is old school as well (“What is that great stone head doing in the dungeon room?” “Why does that fountain generate an infinite number of skeletons?” “Who is the oracle of Blackstone Mountain?”). Let the PCs wonder and make up their own explanations.
6. Challenge the players, not the PCs: do not distill most challenges to a skill check. Everyone can roll dice, and it is fun, but too much of it can become boring. Create challenges where player judgement is the primary factor of the outcome (sometimes with a generous helping of pure chance). If you can get away with it, do away with all social skills such as Diplomacy and Bluff.
7. Stories are secondary, gaming is paramount: do not pre-plot adventures. It is fine to have an initial premise, but try to create settings, focusing on places the party can visit, and let them explore this environment as they wish. Give them a lot of self-contained side-areas to explore and experience (an abandoned tower, an island near the seacoast, a mountain renowned for its enchanted statues, etc.). Keep the action moving and prepare for a lot of improvisation. Exploring the wilderness and dungeons is just as fun as going on a quest. For some of us, it is more fun, even!
8. Monster and treasure selection: it is my experience that conservative monster and treasure selection is one of the key factors in the success of old school play. If you have the 1e Monster Manual I, you have a good baseline with enough “basic” monsters and weirdness to sustain most of a campaign. You don’t need more variety than that. Of course, feel free to create an advanced specimen or two (an orc chieftain who is a 6th level Fighter, or a giant lizard that has a fiery breath), but try to rely on what the book gives you. Don’t do too many templates. Lich and vampire are pretty much the only worthwhile ones in the 3e MM (maybe ghost as well); the rest is filler. Avoid two many spiky things or übermonsters. A horde of weak opponents is just as good as a “Big Bad”, and there is nothing like killing enemies by the dozens. A 6th level party can defeat 60-80 gnolls, maybe even more: that’s very 1e, too. The same goes for treasures. Some items feel very old school: +1 swords, potions of healing, wands of frost and horns of Valhalla. That sort of stuff.
9. Simple opponents: you do not have to – indeed, you should not – create highly specific opponents for your PCs. A half-fiend necromancer is superfluous and even silly. A 7th level human Wizard who can cast fireballs is enough. A beholder is enough. Five evil fighters and an evil cleric are enough. A half-orc assassin (the nonmagical type, such as a 7th level rogue) is enough. All of these are sufficient for an exciting campaign. Don’t overdo it. In fact, a certain simplicity is a benefit for old school campaigns.
10. 10th level is high level. In traditional AD&D, 1st to 4th level could be considered low level, 5th to 8th mid-level and anything above that high level. A 10th level PC is already a great hero – a Lord, a High Priest, a Master Wizard or a Master Thief (again, as per the level titles in the 1e PHB). If the PCs have achieved that level, it is time for them to go into semi-retirement. There is a good reason for slow advancement, because the adventurers aren’t supposed to really reach those very high levels. If you can cast Raise Dead, Teleport and the like, you are already at the top of the heap. Accordingly, most NPCs should obey the same rules. If the master of a city is a 7th level Thief, that’s good enough. Added bonus: in this environment, PCs can more easily become people of note.
+1. Do not be apologetic. Old school does not have to be a guilty pleasure, but many people treat it that way. Avoid this pitfall. Old school gaming is fun, AD&Dism have an important role in the feel of the game, and to Hell with those who would deny their greatness. There is nothing wrong with memorization, there is nothing wrong with strictly defined and restrictive classes, there is nothing wrong with dungeons or unplotted campaigns. Not at all – all of these are a lot of fun, and they should be embraced and understood instead of rejected as “bad game design” or “nostalgic appeal”.
Following the above advice (or some of it), you can run a meaningful old school campaign. I did so for about four years – eventually switched to Castles and Crusades, but I do not think my experiences with 3e were bad or anything, or that it is impossible to use 3e to run an old school game. But you have to be firm in some areas, and be prepared to make a few hard choices, including cutting back player freedoms and perks 3e tends to dole out a bit too frequently. That, in my opinion, is the hardest part of it all. If you have a party who understands your aims and cooperates, you won’t have too many problems. Otherwise, it will be an uphill battle.
Gentlegamer
Adventurer
By Crom, that brought a tear to my eye! A perfect description of "old school" style!
I notice my quote inhabits the honored position of your sig line . . . no wonder your point one sounded familiar!
I notice my quote inhabits the honored position of your sig line . . . no wonder your point one sounded familiar!
description vs. punch a button
Unfortunately, the dexcription of skills in the books and adventures (Dungeon, though I love it, is bad at this) often encourages people to just roll dice instead of just role-play. I also think of it as "push a button" mentality. People are so used to video games and abilites that work at the push of a button that they assume D&D works the same way.
I hate it when a player asks if they can roll a Diplomacy check at the first sign of interaction with an NPC. The same goes for searching for and disabling traps. Its often a footnote, instead of an actual encounter.
So how do you overcome this, and try for an "old school" feel? Demand more description from your players. As said before, ask them exactly where they are searching. If interacting with an NPC, make them role play it out.
Limit die rolls, and roll them yourself whenever possible. For example, when the PCs meet an NPC, make a Diplomacy check in secret for whoever is doing the most talking. This will give you an idea of how the conversation will go--but don't hold it as gospel, just a guideline. When the PCs are close to a trap, give them a clue about its presence. If they investigate, make them get specific. Give them detailed descriptions so that they can describe their actions well. If they get close, make a Search check in secret. Actually, make a lot of random rolls whenever the PCs are doing anything like this, that way they won't know which one actually counts.
If the PCs discover the trap, have them figure out how to bypass it themselves. If they come up with a good idea, make a Disable Device check, with bonuses or penalties for how good the idea is. Another option is to allow a Disable Device check to figure out *how* to bypass the trap, but the PCs still have to do it themselves (for example, a fire trap at the end of the hallway can be easily bypassed by crawling upside down on the ceiling, but the rogue must make a Disable Device check to figure this out. It could also be figured out by testing the trap; sending a summoned animal or pushing on the sensor stone with a 10' pole. Then the PC must climb upside down down the hallway, and if they fall they set off the trap.)
Be candid with your players that this is the style you intend to run, or it could ruin an adventure. The key point is to have fun and simulate realistic interaction with the environment. Dice rolls are just guidelines for determining outcome, and should be avoided if the DM thinks common sense works better.
Unfortunately, the dexcription of skills in the books and adventures (Dungeon, though I love it, is bad at this) often encourages people to just roll dice instead of just role-play. I also think of it as "push a button" mentality. People are so used to video games and abilites that work at the push of a button that they assume D&D works the same way.
I hate it when a player asks if they can roll a Diplomacy check at the first sign of interaction with an NPC. The same goes for searching for and disabling traps. Its often a footnote, instead of an actual encounter.
So how do you overcome this, and try for an "old school" feel? Demand more description from your players. As said before, ask them exactly where they are searching. If interacting with an NPC, make them role play it out.
Limit die rolls, and roll them yourself whenever possible. For example, when the PCs meet an NPC, make a Diplomacy check in secret for whoever is doing the most talking. This will give you an idea of how the conversation will go--but don't hold it as gospel, just a guideline. When the PCs are close to a trap, give them a clue about its presence. If they investigate, make them get specific. Give them detailed descriptions so that they can describe their actions well. If they get close, make a Search check in secret. Actually, make a lot of random rolls whenever the PCs are doing anything like this, that way they won't know which one actually counts.
If the PCs discover the trap, have them figure out how to bypass it themselves. If they come up with a good idea, make a Disable Device check, with bonuses or penalties for how good the idea is. Another option is to allow a Disable Device check to figure out *how* to bypass the trap, but the PCs still have to do it themselves (for example, a fire trap at the end of the hallway can be easily bypassed by crawling upside down on the ceiling, but the rogue must make a Disable Device check to figure this out. It could also be figured out by testing the trap; sending a summoned animal or pushing on the sensor stone with a 10' pole. Then the PC must climb upside down down the hallway, and if they fall they set off the trap.)
Be candid with your players that this is the style you intend to run, or it could ruin an adventure. The key point is to have fun and simulate realistic interaction with the environment. Dice rolls are just guidelines for determining outcome, and should be avoided if the DM thinks common sense works better.
JamesDJarvis
First Post
Mythmere1 said:
My old school games had mid level (4th to 7th level) PCS facing off against hundreds of humanoids at a time. i only had about 80 or so orc/goblin figures so i'd rotate dead figures from the front of the fight to the back of the fight.
The PCs weren't "little guys" they were heroes.
JamesDJarvis
First Post
Melan is on the mark.
scadgrad
First Post
demonpunk said:
Or you could simply use C&C as your 3.5 houserules. That's what I've done and the result is I think a very enjoyable, human-centric Old School campaign.
@Melkor, you'll save yourself a ton of time if you do the same. I run nearly 100% Goodman Games mods, 1st ed & 2nd ed mods, and Necromancer games mods using a simple houseruled version of C&C. I run every single one of those mods on the fly with almost ZERO prep time other than reading them and deciding where to plop them down in the setting. I'm currently running Tomb of Absythor (one helluva an Old School beauty from Necromancer) and the only tweak I've had to make in over 4 months of play was to review and "power-down" the Clerics of Orcus which took me very little time at all.
I know it sounds like I'm trying to sell you on C&C, but it's perfect for what you're trying to accomplish and will save you tons of time.
@ Melan,
Simply brilliant.
A few points to add to that:
Remove the "goofy, improbable weapons." The spiked chain and some of the other "kewl weapons" are soooo video gamey and just have to go.
Ratchet down the hit points of everybody and consequently the damage that everyone does. C&C does a good job of bringing the HP/Damage dealing escalation back to a level that feels suitably more Old School.
Encourage the proper care and feeding of Henchmen.
Add the Illusionist and Assassin PC classes.
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