[Olympic][b]WE WERE ROBBED!!![/b]

[Storm Raven]

And yet, it's probably the most popular event at the Winter games, just as gymnastics (which suffers from similar problems, although perhaps not as blatantly) is at the Summer games. To take it out would cheapen the Olympics immensely. These sports have a long tradition at the Olympics.

(1) Tradition is no reason to continue doing something stupid.

(2) I'm sure ratings would go up a lot if we included naked skiing and nude figure skating in the Olympics. Does that make it a good idea to put those in too?

 

[Ashtal]

I did read the rest, and didn't agree with that, either.

If it was all about being pretty, we wouldn't have skaters out there pushing the limits to do more jumps, more spins, more flips, more lifts. We wouldn't see them trying to perfect their technical performance. If it was only about being beautiful, nothing in the sport would ever change.

Just because you can't score a goal or have the fastest time doesn't mean it's not a sport.

But the subjective marking does inhibit its legitimacy - no question about it. But to dump all these sports, and skating isn't the only one that is subjective...all the skiing that isn't about the fastest time, snowboarding, most of the gymnastics, so many other sports, too, would all be cut.

And there is corruption in the Point & Speed games, too. How many times do we complain of poor judging in a boxing match (something highly personal and subjective, depending on your interests and literal point of view), or hockey/football games, or whathaveyou. Should we chuck those sports out, too? Certainly bad calls make those unfair matches in many cases.

I say leave 'em in and retool them. Personally, I don't think any judge should be judging their own country's entrants into the match. You shouldn't have more than one judge from each country (there were two Russians, for example). A fall should automatically drop a skater or pair down one rank. Or whatever.

I don't accept that because a sport has issues with its judging that it should be thrown out whole cloth. If we do, then they all gotta go.

 

[Tsyr]

I don't even think "Ignorantly stupid" has any valid definition. If you intend to say that I am stupid and ignorant of my stupidity... well, I guess you could be right because I don't see myself as stupid. But I suspect your wrong and in truth I'm not stupid, rather I disagree with you.

Should Hockey be cut? It's a judged sport when you come down to it. Most of the non-olimpic "sports" are. Sure they have rules, but then so does figureskating, even if they are much more nebulous and taken for granted. How many times have people complained of bad calls by the refs in sports? If I had a penny for every time I could probably built a bridge to neptune with them... a bridge 10 miles wide, 10 miles deep, and made of solid, melted penny metal. And I would probably still have some left over.

If you cut everything but the pure objective sports, you would be left with essentialy things that can be quantified in pure numbers... which, in my opinion, is actualy against the spirit of the olmpics to an extend. The olimpics were meant to show off what people could do, what limits people could reach, what hights of human excelence could be reached. And while this may be be true in purely objective sports, it is no less true in subjective. And I think deciding that other forms of competition than sprinting and other such "pure objective" sports have no place in the Olimpics is the offensive thought, not the fact that figure skating is included.

There.

We have differences of opinion, see? I personaly hold to the theory that different people can hold different opinions without comming to insults, but...

 

[Storm Raven]

Just because you can't score a goal or have the fastest time doesn't mean it's not a sport.

Well, I will point out that I only really advocated eliminating the most corrupt and rotten of all the judged sports: figure skating. I don't like the others, and think they diminish the accomplishments of athletes who actually win their medals rather than having them judged into their hands, but I would be satisfied at the start with just getting rid of the unholy blight that is figure skating.

But the subjective marking does inhibit its legitimacy - no question about it. But to dump all these sports, and skating isn't the only one that is subjective...all the skiing that isn't about the fastest time, snowboarding, most of the gymnastics, so many other sports, too, would all be cut.

Um, yeah, I noted that. In a perfect world of my own arranging, these would all be tossed. I don't expect that to happen, so I contented myself with advocating the elimination of the worst offender, but if I could make the decisions, diving, gymnastics, rhythmic gymnastics, half-pipe snowboarding, syncronized swimming and everything else like that would be eliminated from Olympic competition.

And there is corruption in the Point & Speed games, too. How many times do we complain of poor judging in a boxing match (something highly personal and subjective, depending on your interests and literal point of view)

Boxing, by its very nature is corrupt. The professional ranks of boxing are entirely and hopelessly corrupt to the point where it is likely irretrievable, and has become essentially irrelevant (there was a time when the undiputed heavyweight champion of the world was a rock star like celebrity, most peopl don't even know who holds the various titles now). Olympic boxing has progressed to the point where it has gotten almost silly, but at least there are some objective standards. mechanical scoring isn't the answer there either, does anyone else remember the machine scoring debacle in Barcelona? Boxing is right on the bordeline of being lumped in with the various wholly judged sports like gymnastics.

, or hockey/football games, or whathaveyou. Should we chuck those sports out, too? Certainly bad calls make those unfair matches in many cases.

But the scoring is not wholly and completeley dependent upon the judges. A referee in a hockey match, or basketball game, or team handball game is supposed to ensure that the rules are followed by the players. A referee does not decide one side should win and one side should lose based entirely on his own judgment. Their actions can make a difference, and if they make a bad call they could influence the outcome of a game, but they aren't supposed to. In figure skating, everything hinges on the judge's determinations, they are expected to decide the winner, as opposed to a hockey referee who is expected not to do so.

I say leave 'em in and retool them. Personally, I don't think any judge should be judging their own country's entrants into the match. You shouldn't have more than one judge from each country (there were two Russians, for example). A fall should automatically drop a skater or pair down one rank. Or whatever.

Except that figure skating already has automatic deductions and other similar rules. And those rules are routinely ignored, or the judges rig their voting in areas such as "artistic performance" such that they offset their technical performance scores and get the result they wanted anyway, regardless of what the "rules" say. I just don't think that there is any fair way to judge these competitions, especially when you introduce highly subjective elements into the scoring that are based on personal taste, like "artistic performance" and so on.

I don't accept that because a sport has issues with its judging that it should be thrown out whole cloth. If we do, then they all gotta go.

Okay, then they all gotta go. I'm with you there.

 

[Storm Raven]

I don't even think "Ignorantly stupid" has any valid definition. If you intend to say that I am stupid and ignorant of my stupidity... well, I guess you could be right because I don't see myself as stupid. But I suspect your wrong and in truth I'm not stupid, rather I disagree with you.

No, I said that thinking that just because something is difficult to do, then it must be a sport is both ignorant and stupid. People trot this argument out all the time. "But they work really hard, and what they do is so physically demanding!" And I say, that's all well and good, but that doesn't make it a sport.

Ballet dancing is really hard, and the performers are capable of amazing physical feats. Does that mean ballet dancing should be a sport? I went to see "Fosse" a while back, the dancers in that show were really amazingly fit, and I'm sure they worked really hard to get there, should 'Fosse" be a sport?

The answer is no. What makes a sport? There must be some form of objective element to the determination of who wins and who loses. Figure skating competely fails on this score.

Should Hockey be cut? It's a judged sport when you come down to it. Most of the non-olimpic "sports" are.

First off, if we're going to talk about it, it is Olympic, and it is capitalized.

Second off, hockey isn't a judged sport. It is a refereed sport. There is a huge difference.

In a judged sport, the results are supposed to be wholly and competely determined by the subjective decisions of a group of judges. They are expected to pick the winner and the loser in a competition. Not only are they supposed to have an impact on the standings, their decision determines the standings.

In a refereed sport, the results are supposed to be determined by the players. The referees are expected to have as little impact on the outcome as possible. A referee is supposed to enforce defined rules of conduct and play, allowing the players to determine the outcome of the competition. Not only are they supposed to have as little impact on the outcome as possible, if they do have an impact on the outcome, something has gone wrong.

If you can't figure out the difference between an event in which the final result is supposed to be the product of a subjective determination by a panel of judges, and one in which the final result is not, then you have more things to worry about than I can help you with.

 

[Tsyr]

I've never made any secret of the fact my spelling is... well beyond bad. I really don't think it needs to be brought up; if you have been on these boards for any length of time you should have adjusted by now to my spelling. Nor do I think that detracts from my overall argument. In retrospect I know how to spell Olympic, but I type fairly fast and, I'm afraid, normal do not bother to proofread my posts (The hazards of typing in a college library... you aren't supposed to be doing so in the first place so you tend to finish quickly).

You quibble over my choice of word use. One again, in retrospect, there are better words to have used perhaps than judged, but it was close enough I felt at the time. Besides, I doubt I could even spell referee right (Is that right? I don't think so...), let alone refereed.

However, I do note you attacked my poor word use and bad spelling... but not my actual point. That's fine, you answered much of the same point back when you responded to Ashtal's post, however if you were not going to respond to the actual points in my post, I don't see why you chose to respond in the first place.

Like I said, I hold the opinion two people can disagree about something and remain civil... If my opinion could use revising in anything, I think perhaps that is where I should focus... I could very well be wrong in that thought, perhaps I am an idealistic dreamer.

 

[Storm Raven]

However, I do note you attacked my poor word use and bad spelling... but not my actual point. That's fine, you answered much of the same point back when you responded to Ashtal's post, however if you were not going to respond to the actual points in my post, I don't see why you chose to respond in the first place.

No, I attacked your point that lumped hockey and other refereed sports in with gymnastics, figure skating and other judged events. You stated that if you eliminated figure skating, then hockey would have to go as well because there are referees involved. Which is both incorrect and a straw man argument. There are significant differences between hockey and figure skating that makes one clearly a sporting event and the other drifting so far afield that I cannot in good conscience use that term to describe it.

Like I said, I hold the opinion two people can disagree about something and remain civil... If my opinion could use revising in anything, I think perhaps that is where I should focus... I could very well be wrong in that thought, perhaps I am an idealistic dreamer.

If that was the only "point" of your post, then I agree with you.

 

[madriel]

BTW, Old One, I agree that the Russians knew--and I feel bad for them as well. The judges did an injustice to both pairs; they stole the dreams of one, and tarnished the memories of the other

Exactly. Instead of being a triumphant return for the Russians from terrible personal difficulties to the medal podium, they now have a medal they clearly felt was tainted. If I read the interactions on the podium right, Jamie and David were reassuring their Russian counterparts.

I, too, was worried by David's perfectly natural reaction after finishing their program. The judges have always punished skaters who celebrate too exuberantly. Those ...um, idiots, apparently missed the fact that Jamie and David were not gloating or anything, but just thrilled because they nailed their performance and clearly had a whole lot of fun.

We were robbed, but Jamie & David and the Russian pair were robbed the most.

 

[Storm Raven]

We were robbed, but Jamie & David and the Russian pair were robbed the most.

This is my biggest probelm with figure skating. This is not unusual in figure skating. Every single Winter Olympics there is some sort of huge controversy over the scoring in figure skating, as one competitior (or pair of competitors) gets robbed of a medal. For example, does anyone here remember when Torvil and Dean were placed lower than a Russian ice dancing couple who had an illegal routine?

It just happens too much to take figure skating seriously as a sport. By comparison, look at Olympic basketball. Once an official made a huge impact on the outcome of a game in 1976, essentially reversing the outcome of the Gold medal game with an incorrect (and by the rules, illegal for him to make) call. This was a huge scandal, never before seen in the sport, a black mark on Olympic basketball that is remembered over two decades after it happened, and hasn't been repeated since.

Similarly outrageous incidents in the corrupt and rotten event known as figure skating happen every single Olympics. And people wonder why I say that figure skating should be tossed.

 

[CrazyMage]

Some of Storm Raven's comments quickly brought to mind a little segment from the Daily Show Monday night--a mime who wants to get mime into the Olympics. All the standard arguments about how difficult mime is, how it requires great skill and athleticism, etc. Come on! Do we need juggling and skateboarding at the Olympics (or snowboarding, even though Americans swept the men's halfpipe)? Where do you draw the line?

All that aside, the Canadians were robbed, and I thank those who pointed out how the Russians were robbed as well of the true honor of winning well-earned gold.

Maybe we should scrap the Olympics and just run Challenges of Champions