[Olympic][b]WE WERE ROBBED!!![/b]

[Desdichado]

Does anyone remember in the 92 Winter Olympics i think it was... in the Ice Dancing, something absolutely imposssible happened:

The top FIFTEEN skate pairs afetr the qualifying round ended up in EXACTLY the same fifteen places in the final round.

No movement.
No change.
No JUDGING.

Just the judges writing out what order they wanted the skaters to end up in, and then the dancers going thru the dog-and-pony show for the benefit of the audience and the television.

Last night, NBC (nor CBC to my knowledge, although I didn't watch it on that channel) didn't give all the way down to 15th place, but the top 6th came out in exactly the same order they did after the short program, despite performances that completely didn't merit those same rankings. Again, no movement, no change, no JUDGING.

 

[madriel]

Ice dancing was always the most corrupt sport in the Olympics and figure skating isn't all that far behind, but is that any reason to punish the athletes by banning the sport they love?

Something needs to be done about the corruption in the ranks of the judges but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater please.

 

[Sodalis]

Storm raven: A sport is a competition in which there is a measureable, objective component beyond the control of a human judge. Something is not a sport if it is intended that a judge determine the outcome. Figure skating fits in this category, so it is not a sport. Something is a sport if it is intended that a referee have as little impact on the final result as possible. Hockey fits in this category, so it is a sport.


Just a question to start off- is boxing a sport? Two fighters go into a ring and showcase their physical superiority and the one that lands the most punches, or knocks the other guy down, wins... Clear and simple- no judge can mess that up right?

WRONG!!!

Remembers the '92 olympics held in Seoul, Korea... of course you do. Roy Jones Junior was in the finals with a korean champion. Jones was the heavy favorite to win, and he proved it. He dominated the match from the very start to the very end, and there was no doubt in anybody's mind that he had won- pretty handly too.

But since he did not knock the korean guy down, it was laid in the hands of the judges. They scored the match in favor of the korean. heartbreaker for everyone who was watching...

So- if you said that Boxing is asport, surely you have to revise you belief of how judges cannot dictate the outcome of a true sport.

I think that boxing is a great sport. But there is room for judges to botch even the best sports- and affect the outcome.

If you want an example closer to home, take the Patriots V Raiders game. In that game, a fumble was ruled incomplete pass- based on the rules. The refs could have easily said it was a fumble and gave the Raiders te game. tehy didn't. So New England won. This was a subjective call. If you go by what you saw,it was a fumble. According to the rules, as is, it was incomplete pass...

 

[WSmith]

Hockey is a sport. The team that gets the puck into the goal the most times wins. It doesn't matter if a judge thinks one team or another looked silly of used bad tactics, if they push the puck across more times they win.

I agree that hockey is a sport, but the judges, er, referees DO and CAN influence the outcome of the event. I know out of the millions of game I watched, there were many "bad" penalties called, which when looking at the big picture and seeing them occur consistantly in the game, cost one team the win. Same for baseball, football, soccer, etc. If a sport is only considered as that not being judged, I am affraid the only true sport would gladiatorial combat, cuase there can only be one winner.

I know nothing about skating, but just watching the Canadians and the Russians, I could eyeball and tell that the Great White Northerners were robbed.

Of course being the romantic I am I was hoping that the Russian pair would take off their medals and give them to the Canadians in the ceremony. It didn't happen.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ice dancing was always the most corrupt sport in the Olympics and figure skating isn't all that far behind, but is that any reason to punish the athletes by banning the sport they love?

Something needs to be done about the corruption in the ranks of the judges but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater please.

Frankly I'm more concerned with damaging the reputation of athletes who compete in sports that aren't laden with apparently irreversible corruption. If something as high profile as Olympic figure skating hands out medals in an entirely arbitrary and corrupt manner, how do you think this affects the value of the medals won by Olympic athletes in sports where actual merit determines the winners?

This is not a new problem for figure skating. Just about every single Winter Olympics in my lifetime has had a huge scandal involving some form of figure skating. Every four years someone is handed a medal when they clearly did not deserve it based upon the actual competition. Despite this, figure skating has done nothing to cure the problem, and probably cannot do anything to cure it either.

Now think of yourself as an athlete who actually earned his medal via fair competition, you are Paul Ereng, or Dan Jansen or Abebe Biliyaka. How do you feel about having the validity of your medal tarnished because figure skating is a rotten and corrupt sport?

It isn't about punishing the figure skaters, or about not punishing them. It is about being fair to the athletes who compete in the honest sports.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

The only reason anything should be dropped from the Olympics is lack of interest on the parts of the audience and competitors. There is plenty of other stuff to watch if you don't like something. I'd hate to see the Olympics pared down to a handful of "cool" sports. What fun would that be? When I watch the Olympics, I hope to see bizarre and obscure sports, or competitions that are simply artistic and beautiful to watch, like figure skating. I'd welcome ballroom dancing as an Olympic event! Why couldn't "Fosse" be an event, as long as there are people who want to compete and watch? I'm very inclusive on this - if there is enough interest in making something an event - from poker to skydiving to, heck, playing RPGs - make it an event! Why not? Misguided attempts to define this or that as a "legitimate" sport always make me laugh - after all, when you boil it all down, just about any sport is glorified (or maybe not so glorified) child's play. If the problem is subjective judging - well, it'll take care of itself. If enough people get disgusted and lose interest or try to change things, then there will be changes or the event will be eliminated due to lack of interest.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Now think of yourself as an athlete who actually earned his medal via fair competition, you are Paul Ereng, or Dan Jansen or Abebe Biliyaka. How do you feel about having the validity of your medal tarnished because figure skating is a rotten and corrupt sport?

It isn't about punishing the figure skaters, or about not punishing them. It is about being fair to the athletes who compete in the honest sports.

I think this is a leap in logic that isn't valid. I don't think the reputation of other events is sullied by the corruption of another. I've never heard or seen any such criticism, that, say, the luge is somehow diminished because of the shenanigans occurring in figure skating.

 

[Storm Raven]

Just a question to start off- is boxing a sport? Two fighters go into a ring and showcase their physical superiority and the one that lands the most punches, or knocks the other guy down, wins... Clear and simple- no judge can mess that up right?

Actually, if you read the thread, you would have noted that I said this about boxing about two pages ago:

Boxing, by its very nature is corrupt. The professional ranks of boxing are entirely and hopelessly corrupt to the point where it is likely irretrievable, and has become essentially irrelevant (there was a time when the undiputed heavyweight champion of the world was a rock star like celebrity, most people don't even know who holds the various titles now). Olympic boxing has progressed to the point where it has gotten almost silly, but at least there are some objective standards. Mechanical scoring isn't the answer there either, does anyone else remember the machine scoring debacle in Barcelona? Boxing is right on the bordeline of being lumped in with the various wholly judged sports like gymnastics.

I clearly noted that boxing had many similarities to gymnastics, and was dangerously close to the line between sport and not sport. I didn't give a specific answer either way, my inclination would be to call the current incarnation not a sport as it remains hideously subjective, but I think it is possible the rules and scoring could be changed to make it less so.

[Snip description of travesty of Roy Jones Junior being denied the gold in Seoul]

So- if you said that Boxing is a sport, surely you have to revise you belief of how judges cannot dictate the outcome of a true sport.

Since I didn't say that boxing is a sport, and left the question open while stating that it's validity as a sport is dubious, I'd say that I don't have to revise anything.

If you want an example closer to home, take the Patriots V Raiders game. In that game, a fumble was ruled incomplete pass- based on the rules. The refs could have easily said it was a fumble and gave the Raiders te game. tehy didn't. So New England won. This was a subjective call. If you go by what you saw, it was a fumble. According to the rules, as is, it was incomplete pass...

This was not an example of a subjective call. This is an example of the application of a very clearly defined rule. And this proves that referees don't determine the outcome of football games as a matter of subjective taste. They had a clear rule and applied it. You may disagree with the rule, but both teams should have been aware of the rule before playing, and the clear rule was applied correctly. The result being that, in this case, the referees had no impact on the outcome of the game. They applied the rules, the rules had an impact on the outcome of the game. An entirely different animal.

 

[Desdichado]

This is not a new problem for figure skating. Just about every single Winter Olympics in my lifetime has had a huge scandal involving some form of figure skating. Every four years someone is handed a medal when they clearly did not deserve it based upon the actual competition. Despite this, figure skating has done nothing to cure the problem, and probably cannot do anything to cure it either.

[...]

It isn't about punishing the figure skaters, or about not punishing them. It is about being fair to the athletes who compete in the honest sports.

And yet, the prestige of holding an Olympic medal is the same its always been, despite your lifetime of skating scandals. You see, the problem with your argument is that its all specious theory and no fact.

I have to agree with the Colonel here, too... the Olympics have done a good job of following society's desires, for the main part. There's no reason to be so elitist about what's allowable as an Olympic sport. If you try to play that game, sooner or later you have to cancel the Winter Games altogether and just have some track and field and greco-roman wrestling between naked men.

 

[Storm Raven]

I agree that hockey is a sport, but the judges, er, referees DO and CAN influence the outcome of the event. I know out of the millions of game I watched, there were many "bad" penalties called, which when looking at the big picture and seeing them occur consistantly in the game, cost one team the win. Same for baseball, football, soccer, etc.

No, you miss the point. A hockey referee does not pick a winner. In point of fact, if a hockey referee does his job right, he has no impact on the game at all. He merely ensures that the rules of the game are followed by the competitors. In point of fact, if a referee (or umpire) does have an impact on a game, he's done something wrong. This is true in all sports in which there are referees.

A figure skating judge determines the outcome of the match entirely based on their own subjective judgment. Their entire purpose for existence is to pick winners and losers. If they do their jobs right, the entire competition is determined by their decisionmaking. The difference here is that it is intended that the virtually unguided sentiment of the judge picks the winner, as opposed to it being intended that a referee avoid impacting the outcome of an event as much as possible.

If a sport is only considered as that not being judged, I am afraid the only true sport would gladiatorial combat, cause there can only be one winner.

So, you are saying you can't pick the winner of a footrace based on objective criteria? Odd.