[Olympic][b]WE WERE ROBBED!!![/b]

[omedon]

Re: Re: Re: It ain't over yet!

A competition (usually of a physical nature) in which the victor is determined primarily by factors other than the subjective opinions of judges. A sport is a competition in which there is a measureable, objective component beyond the control of a human judge.

Speed skating is a sport. When the fastest guy crosses the finish line it doesn't matter if a judge thinks he did it inartfully, he wins.

Hockey is a sport. The team that gets the puck into the goal the most times wins. It doesn't matter if a judge thinks one team or another looked silly of used bad tactics, if they push the puck across more times they win.

In addition, intentions matter. Something is not a sport if it is intended that a judge determine the outcome. Figure skating fits in this category, so it is not a sport. Something is a sport if it is intended that a referee have as little impact on the final result as possible. Hockey fits in this category, so it is a sport.

Really now, I've explained this in this thread already. Did you miss that part?

Does this mean that we should see golf in the Olympics? Darts? Pool? Surely these contests can all be scored with a clear winner and a loser without any sort of judging needed. But are they sports or are they games? If they are games then why not have checkers, scrabble, and hearts added to the Olympics? or if you want something with more athletic ability how about Hungry Hungry Hippoes? My roomate quesitions curlings inclusion in the winter olympics. While it requires plenty of skill, he sees it as more of a game than a sport because of the little amount of raw athletic ability required.

Figure skating while it is a judged sport requires a tremendous amount of fitness, strength, and athletic ability to perform the strenuous feats. These are all things that Olympics strive to promote and display.

It is a shame and a detriment to the sport that the judging has become so corrupt. And if something isn't done soon I think you will begin to see fewer and fewer people competing in it. If things do continue this way then I suggest that it should be removed from the olympics, but I think it would be rash to outright ban the sport rather than attempt to set up a process to remove corrupt judges and finding a better way to score the performances (60% technical and 40% artistic perhaps).

I just don't think it would be the Olympics without: Diving, Figure Skating, Boxing, Wrestling, Gymnastics, Aerial and Free-style skiing, Snowboarding, etc.

The Canadians were robbed this year in the pairs, just like last year in the dance. I for one was not/I] surprised by the results as I was almost positive that there would be cheating due to the fiasco with the Nagano Dance competition. It looks like the corruption has spread. You can expect to see more block-voting in the Dance comptetion later on. It has been speculated that Russia bought Frances free-vote (as they didn't have a team in the pairs) in the pairs by promising to support them in the Dance (where they do have a team).

On another note is anyone else a little pissed about the fact that replaced Snowboard Giant Slalom with Parrallel GS? The way they score this thing is retarded. Apparantely the European countries whined about GS because NA were supperior to them at it, 11 vote to 2 and it has been removed with Parallel GS in its place. TV stations had a role in this too as it is more "exciting". I could even stand them haveing Parrallel GS, but there is absolute no reason to eliminate GS in order to do so.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

OK, so boxing is corrupt, and it dragged down what other sport's reputation with it? Is football or baseball thought to be more corrupt because boxing is? Of course not. That's why your argument about figure skating dragging down other Olympic events doesn't hold water. People are smart enough to distinguish between the corruption of an event and the integrity of the entire Olympics.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

So, corruption is okay if everyone agrees to it?

Yes, exactly. As I said, any competition is based upon a pact between the competitors, judges, and audience. All agree to the terms of the competition. By the way, "subjective" is not synonymous with "corrupt."

Events in which subjective judging is required are not sports and should not be treated as such. They are no different than beauty pageants, and I don't see a lot of people clamoring for the Miss Universe pageant to be included in the Olympics.

That's simply a subjective judgement. Objectively, whatever is called for as an event by a great number of people should be included.

 

[Sodalis]

storm raven

did your cat die? or are you just upset that you are being attacked by everyone on the boards that think that there are sports out there that lie in the hands of judges?

I agree that there is a difference between a sport, competition, and artistic showcase. but i don't agree that just because the results lie in the hands of a judge doesnt mean that it cannot be a sport.

if you are such the expert, then how do they measure the distance in the longjump? last time I checked a man eyeballed the distance (using some measuring device like a tape measure or bar) and recorded it. There is no way to have a machine measure the distance, so this IS subjective.

In Olympic Track and Field, false starts are determined by pressure sensors in the starting blocks. No judgement required. Know what you are talking about before babbling.

Starting blocks are used in the sprints, but what about the distance races? With 20 people on the tracks, there are no blocks, and the judge calls a flase start, you are still DQ'd.

lighten up, nothing we say here can change the outcome of the medals. We are just voicing our concerns

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Re: Re: It ain't over yet!

Does this mean that we should see golf in the Olympics? Darts? Pool?

Sure. If I remember correctly, golf was a demonstration sport in Atlanta, but I could be misremembering that. Darts isn't that different than archery or the various shooting competitions that are in the games now, so that shouldn't be a problem. Pool is unusual, but I can't see any good reason not to include it.

Surely these contests can all be scored with a clear winner and a loser without any sort of judging needed. But are they sports or are they games? If they are games then why not have checkers, scrabble, and hearts added to the Olympics? or if you want something with more athletic ability how about Hungry Hungry Hippoes? My roomate quesitions curlings inclusion in the winter olympics. While it requires plenty of skill, he sees it as more of a game than a sport because of the little amount of raw athletic ability required.

How much athletic ability is required for the various archery and shooting competitions compared to curling? If they can be in, I don't see why curling shouldn't be.

Figure skating while it is a judged sport requires a tremendous amount of fitness, strength, and athletic ability to perform the strenuous feats. These are all things that Olympics strive to promote and display.

No one has said that figure skating doesn't require physical skill, strength, stamina and agility. I've said the exact opposite. But that is not enough to make it a sport.

I just don't think it would be the Olympics without: Diving, Figure Skating, Boxing, Wrestling, Gymnastics, Aerial and Free-style skiing, Snowboarding, etc.

Well, then I guess you didn't think it was the Olympics back in 1988 when Aerial and Freestyle Skiing and Snowboarding weren't part of the games.

And Wrestling isn't judged, it is refereed based upon very clear rules.

 

[der_kluge]

question

Someone answer me this - I sent this question to foxnews.com, but it may take them a while to respond.

According to the results on cnn.com from the judge's scoring, the Canadians DID win.

(Not sure how this will turn out)

Scores for Elena Berezhnaya and Anton Sikharulidze
1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 
5.8 5.8 5.7 5.8 5.7 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.7
5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.9
11.7 11.7 11.6 11.7 11.6 11.5 11.7 11.6 11.6 104.7
 

Scores for Jamie Sale and David Pelletier
1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 
5.8 5.9 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.9 5.8
5.8 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.9 5.9
11.6 11.7 11.7 11.6 11.6 11.8 11.6 11.8 11.7 105.1


But, in a nutshell, the Canadians were 105.1, and the Russians were 104.7 - according to the scoring I found at cnn.com.

So, what gives? Anyone know?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It ain't over yet!

Well, then I guess you didn't think it was the Olympics back in 1988 when Aerial and Freestyle Skiing and Snowboarding weren't part of the games.

[/B]

See, what I think people are objecting to is that you are ready to dismiss many sports based simply upon your own subjective judgement concerning what is or isn't a sport. Check out the newest issue of Dragon, in which one of the reader letters talks about how everyone who plays any edition other than 1e is not a true gamer. That type of attitude serves no purpose than to polarize everyone into mutually hostile camps.

But, I agree with you that darts and golf should be events. For that matter, drag racing and all the "world's strongest man" events should also be included, as well as bull riding (seriously!)

 

[Storm Raven]

if you are such the expert, then how do they measure the distance in the longjump? last time I checked a man eyeballed the distance (using some measuring device like a tape measure or bar) and recorded it. There is no way to have a machine measure the distance, so this IS subjective.

Umm, only to the extent that the judge could get the actual distance wrong. There is objective criteria to rely upon here, the actual distance as shown on the measuring device (they use a set of measurements set into the side of the pit in most venues now.

The only way to make any sort of analogy to the situation you find in figure skating would be if the track and field official decided who won the long jump by deciding who looked the best while jumping. (One of the problems I have with ski jumping by the way).

Starting blocks are used in the sprints, but what about the distance races? With 20 people on the tracks, there are no blocks, and the judge calls a flase start, you are still DQ'd.

False starts are so rare in standing start races as to not even be a factor. When I was racing, I would usually take a position behind the front rank of racers since it made so little difference to get off the start line quickly in a race that long.

lighten up, nothing we say here can change the outcome of the medals. We are just voicing our concerns

Sure, I know my desire is a pipe dream, but I can rant can't I?

 

[Florin]

Die Kluge, are you counting the short program too?

 

[Florin]

Is that true? I thought certain elements, such as paired camel spins, etc. were still necessary requirements in every program.

Things like that are still required in the program(s), but the whole part of the competition where they had to skate certain patterns and such, which usually wasn't televised, has been removed.