D&D 2E On AD&D 2E

[Reynard]

A friend of mine asked, rather out of the blue, what edition of D&D I would use for my "last D&D campaign ever" and I answered, without hesitation, 2nd Edition AD&D. I kind of want to examine that a little bit, and thought here would eb a good place.

1. For sure there is a lot of nostalgia involved. While I was a "BECMI kid" -- we started with B and kept going knowing with nothing else for years -- it wasn't until I discovered 2nd Edition that the whole D&D thing blossomed for me. We played a tiny bit of 1E but discovered it so late that 2E was out within 6 months. Suddenly all the impenetrable esoterica of 1E was gone and the game made sense. Moreover, we could use the truly awesome bits of BECMI without any trouble at all, particularly the Domain rules and the War Machine.

2. 2E is so broadly written that it covers almost any subgenre of fantasy you can think of. You can still 1E dungeon crawl with it, but you can also Lord of the Rings with it and Game of Throne with it.

3. THAC0 is not hard. It's subtraction. Stop it.

4. This goes back to 1 above a bit, but my longest running campaign (20 years) started with 2E and even though it went through 3E and 3.5 and even Mutants and Masterminds (when the campaign world advanced to the super hero age) it still had its heart in 2E.

5. I feel like I could bolt any system from any D&D edition or any other game onto 2E and never worry about "balance." I could add advantage/disadvantage and it would work fine. I could include item creation from 3.x. I could, as mentioned, implement the BECMI domain management and mass combat rules. People sing the praises of a integrated core mechanic, but I thing a solid game with disparate systems lends itself to infinite hacking, which is a core tenet of D&D.

6. That Monster Manual is a thing of beauty.

7. There was SO MUCH STUFF for it. I know that wasn't good for TSR, but it was freaking great for my table and campaigns.

Anyway, I just felt like articulating the things I love about 2E. Carry on.

 

[DMZ2112]

Good post.

Agreed about the THAC0 meme being devoid of intellectual merit.

Do not particularly miss tracking experience gains across a multiclass character with different level costs, class rewards, and prime requisite bonuses, but can't argue that it at least encouraged play beyond the three pillars of combat, combat, and combat.

(I love D&D5, mods, I'm not edition warring, just griping.)

 

[billd91]

3. THAC0 is not hard. It's subtraction. Stop it.

Ascending AC just uses addition on the positive side of the number line. It’s easier. It’s also easy to port in to 2e. You, stop it.

 

[Malmuria]

On a scale from 1-10, how much do people like THAC0?

 

[billd91]

On a scale from 1-10, how much do people like THAC0?

3 because it got you away from having to consult a table in the DMG. But once the switch to ascending AC came with 3e… it’s not worth going back to.

 

[Firwood]

On a scale from 1-10, how much do people like THAC0?

10. If someone cannot do a simple subtraction and has to constantly refer to a table, the fault lies not with the system, but with the player.
Obviously i'm an old AD&D player (2nd edition) and still playing with this system. I have played and enjoyed 3/3.5, tried and hated 4e, played 5e, which I nevertheless find just a bland version of AD&D: all too easy, classes that do a bit of everything without differing too much, characters that are too powerful for my taste.

 

[Reynard]

Ascending AC just uses addition on the positive side of the number line. It’s easier. It’s also easy to port in to 2e. You, stop it.

Sure. But it isn't so hard that it should stop people from playing older editions.

Also, it was a joke. Jeez.

 

[Reynard]

On a scale from 1-10, how much do people like THAC0?

Yes. This is the most interesting thing about 2E. We should totally burn the thread down picking apart THAC0.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Ascending AC just uses addition on the positive side of the number line. It’s easier. It’s also easy to port in to 2e. You, stop it.

1d20 + enemy AC, hit ≥ THAC0.

A THAC0 is literally just a DC. If you play 3e, 4e, or 5e, you use THAC0 out of combat all the time. Calm down.

 

[deganawida]

Point #5 is one that I also strongly agree with. When you have disparate systems for resolution, changing one doesn’t break anything else. You’re making an isolated change.

I still love 2e. After I came back to TTRPGs in late 2021 after almost an 8 year hiatus, and found 5e not to my liking, I ordered a PoD copy of the 2nd edition PHN from DriveThruRPG. I was disappointed that it was the revised, but it was still a joy to read through.

 

[deganawida]

Thought of something else that I love about 2nd edition, as a good friend is sending me a barrage of messages as to why he loves building characters in PF2: You don’t have to have max strength or dexterity on your Warrior and Rogue group characters in order to be effective. High Str and Dex provide just bonuses. THAC0 sets your default math for hitting. Sure, high attributes help, and give more experience, but they aren’t necessary as they are in WotC D&D. That gives more character variety.

The two notable exceptions are Priest and Wizard group classes, which need primary attribute for max level spells. Still, there are ways around that.

 

[James Gasik]

I need to preface this post with a disclaimer. I love 2e. I played it for a very long time. But it has warts, and whether something is a bug or a feature is often in the eye of the beholder, so to speak.

2e is a very different game. It has tons of splatbooks to draw from, potentially giving you a bewildering array of options that is at least equal to the 3.5 era. You don't have to use them all, of course, but I played in a few campaigns where "if TSR wrote it, it's legal for use" and the disparity between a guy who plays a Fighter from the PHB to someone who is a specialty priest out of Faiths and Avatars, has psionic wild talents, a kit, and has a cracked-out race from outside the PHB like Sylvan Elf, Tiefling, Aasimar, or something from the Complete Book of Humanoids, is telling.

You have Elven Dualist Wizards, Wild Mages, Viking Rune Magic, Spellfire Wielders, Psionicists, Quest Spells, Elven High Magic, Elementalists, Sha'ir, and probably seven or eight even more esoteric powers I'm forgetting that are potentially available to players. The game can run from magic-high (Forgotten Realms), magic super-high (Arcane Age), magic-low (your typical Ravenloft game), and weird hybrids like Dark Sun (magic super low to Dragon Kings).

Just about every rule in the PHB can be bent or broken in later books (my Paladin can't have weapon specialization? I can't dual-wield long swords? I can't be a multi-classed Bard? Hold my ale!), and only once did TSR ever try to rebalance things (Complete Priest's Handbook)- most books are pure power creep. So you can embrace the gonzo madness, or try to lock things down to the bare essentials, as you like.

Character classes aren't balanced against each other, even if the different xp tracks might lead you think so. Some classes are useless until about level 5. Thieves can't reliably do anything at low levels (even with the best possible race/Dex combo in the PHB, it's going to take til level 4 to get to 95% hide and move silently, as examples, and you're going to be terrible at anything else).

Warrior classes are beasts for a good while, with ever-increasing saves, great hit points, and reliable damage....then one day out of the blue, spellcasters are able to break reality in half...or not, since "save neg." relegates many spells to worthlessness, and the game isn't shy about giving out immunities and magic resistance like candy.

Everything is slave to RNG- your character can be puny or godlike based on random chance, and random chance can fell even the most powerful character, forcing many to try and make ever stronger characters.

And you will find out quickly that, despite what the books claim, you can't just make whatever character you want- system mastery permeates the game, from what ability scores are best for you, to even what weapons you should use (longswords yes, two weapon fighting, yes, two handed weapons, no).

And finally, well, about Thac0, I'm not going to weigh in on whether it's good or bad, but instead I'm going to bring up how horribly it's presented, thanks to D&D-isms that were present from day 1.

As you level, your Thac0 goes down. And your AC goes down. But rather than subtract from Thac0, your ability scores and magic items increase your die roll. Your Dexterity defense mod. is a negative value, which makes sense, since it lowers your AC. But just about any other beneficial modifier to AC is represented as a positive value!

I've had new players express confusion that somehow a Shield +1 isn't a cursed item!

Combine this with the fact that you want to roll high on saving throws and attacks, but low on ability checks and Non-Weapon Proficiencies...and other times, rather than use a d20, the game wants you to use d%, and it's more than a little oblique to new gamers.

Oh and about those Non-Weapon Proficiencies- it's always interesting that the more books you use, the less characters can do without proficiency! Soon you need proficiencies to notice things, to observe things (not the same!), to fast-talk, intimidate, gather information, loot treasure quickly, beg for coin, mimic the sounds of animals, guide a boat down a rapid stream (no, sorry, Seamanship doesn't apply!), Acting, seduction, pretending to be asleep, walking on water, or even (a personal favorite), Giant Kite Flying!

All in a system that gives most characters 3 proficiency slots at level 1 and a new one every 3 levels! Oh sure, maybe your Class (Bard) or Kit gives you a few free ones, and you can always choose to know less languages, but there's no way you're going to get more than a few of these, and the system for improving proficiencies is, well, pretty draconian, to say the least. Oh and some proficiencies cost more than one slot!

(And while the PHB claims that proficiencies are optional, that flies out the window with the very first splatbook, lol).

TLDR: 2e has a great deal of charm, gonzo insanity, and wild ideas a plenty. It's also a hot mess of a system. If you're familiar with all of it's idiosyncrasies, you probably love it. Or hate it.

Most likely, a mix of the two. It's likely the most house-ruled version of the game that has ever existed, to the point that any two random players will have incredibly different experiences playing the game.

When it was good, it was and incredible, amazing experience. When it was not good, it was wretched, bitter experience.

And I haven't even gotten into Dragon Magazine content or the "Player's Option" books yet!

 

[James Gasik]

Thought of something else that I love about 2nd edition, as a good friend is sending me a barrage of messages as to why he loves building characters in PF2: You don’t have to have max strength or dexterity on your Warrior and Rogue group characters in order to be effective. High Str and Dex provide just bonuses. THAC0 sets your default math for hitting. Sure, high attributes help, and give more experience, but they aren’t necessary as they are in WotC D&D. That gives more character variety.

The two notable exceptions are Priest and Wizard group classes, which need primary attribute for max level spells. Still, there are ways around that.

I think you're underselling the value of the bonuses though. Unlike WotC D&D, where going from one number to the next is a trivial bonus, high ability scores can have a dramatic effect on your character.

Having run a Thief with a 15 Dexterity, one with a 16, and one with a 19, it's a huge deal for that class. A point or two of Dexterity can make you function as if you were 1-2 levels higher than you actually are!

And if you manage to win the Warrior Lottery and get exceptional Strength, you can go from needing 2-3 hits to kill enemies to one-shotting orcs without even having to roll dice!

 

[deganawida]

I think you're underselling the value of the bonuses though. Unlike WotC D&D, where going from one number to the next is a trivial bonus, high ability scores can have a dramatic effect on your character.

Having run a Thief with a 15 Dexterity, one with a 16, and one with a 19, it's a huge deal for that class. A point or two of Dexterity can make you function as if you were 1-2 levels higher than you actually are!

And if you manage to win the Warrior Lottery and get exceptional Strength, you can go from needing 2-3 hits to kill enemies to one-shotting orcs without even having to roll dice!

Not really selling it short, and, if I gave that impression, I apologize. I merely mean that you could have a fighter with the minimum strength (9) and the fighter would be able to hit max AC at 20th 50% of the time without magic weapons (pulling from memory, so if my memory of the progression is off, feel free to correct me).

 

[James Gasik]

Not really selling it short, and, if I gave that impression, I apologize. I merely mean that you could have a fighter with the minimum strength (9) and the fighter would be able to hit max AC at 20th 50% of the time without magic weapons (pulling from memory, so if my memory of the progression is off, feel free to correct me).

Oh no, Thac0 does eventually drop to 1 for a 20th-level Warrior. But the question is one of relevance at that point- without the benefits of high Strength, what are you doing for damage? Can you afford to two-weapon fight without investing 2 weapon proficiencies to obviate the penalties?

Can your party beat that venerable Blue Dragon with it's 90 average hit points when you're doing 27 damage a round vs. it's 52.5 damage a round (or that 100 hit point breath weapon attack?).

Basically, the lower your ability scores are, the more magic you need to win. Of course, given that there are magic items that increase your ability scores, that point might be moot. But higher scores make it more likely to reach that point. Maybe.

 

[Reynard]

2e is a very different game. It has tons of splatbooks to draw from, potentially giving you a bewildering array of options that is at least equal to the 3.5 era. You don't have to use them all, of course, but I played in a few campaigns where "if TSR wrote it, it's legal for use" and the disparity between a guy who plays a Fighter from the PHB to someone who is a specialty priest out of Faiths and Avatars, has psionic wild talents, a kit, and has a cracked-out race from outside the PHB like Sylvan Elf, Tiefling, Aasimar, or something from the Complete Book of Humanoids, is telling.

You have Elven Dualist Wizards, Wild Mages, Viking Rune Magic, Spellfire Wielders, Psionicists, Quest Spells, Elven High Magic, Elementalists, Sha'ir, and probably seven or eight even more esoteric powers I'm forgetting that are potentially available to players. The game can run from magic-high (Forgotten Realms), magic super-high (Arcane Age), magic-low (your typical Ravenloft game), and weird hybrids like Dark Sun (magic super low to Dragon Kings).

I don't have much sympathy for folks who don't curate their rulebook selection, then bemoan the "brokenness" of their game -- in any system.

Again, part of the appeal of 2E is that is does add-on system very well. But that doesn't mean you don't have to consider how to implement those add ons for your game.

 

[Zardnaar]

Thaco prefer not to use it but if a DM wanted to so be it.

Think I want my final game to be 2E.

 

[TolkienThePiss]

I've never played 2nd Edition (outside of far too many hours with the Baldurs Gate video games) but I have collected and devoured a lot of the books (AD&D 1 also) which I let inform most of my 5e games. I'd love to play AD&D 2, but my current group can just about manage 5th Edition and dumping 2nd edition on them wouldn't fly.

 

[Zardnaar]

I've never played 2nd Edition (outside of far too many hours with the Baldurs Gate video games) but I have collected and devoured a lot of the books (AD&D 1 also) which I let inform most of my 5e games. I'd love to play AD&D 2, but my current group can just about manage 5th Edition and dumping 2nd edition on them wouldn't fly.

2E easier to run harder to learn.

 

[TwoSix]

I would totally go back and play 2e, as long as everyone played Skills and Powers clerics. Literally the perfect class.