D&D 2E On AD&D 2E

[James Gasik]

If you're totally on board with the gonzo-ness that using a bunch of supplements brings to the game, 2e is a blast. But the fact that you can very easily mess up and make a useless character while trying to bring some vision to life cannot be ignored. I've seen many character concepts that, on paper, should have worked and just...didn't.

I've had to deal with a lot of people who see this as a feature, not a bug, and go out of their way to create "fleshed out" characters that are definitely not optimal, then they seem confused when they are outperformed, and start calling everyone else at the table "min/maxers" or "powergamers", like playing a Fighter with their highest stat being Strength is some kind of cardinal sin, lol.

 

[DammitVictor]

I'll confess, I have imploded some games by trying to run 2e with too many optional rules too quickly with players who were too green.

Can be done, but I needed to put a lot more time and effort into it, well in advance, than I did.

 

[James Gasik]

It is a sprawling mess.
I think that you have to look more at the individual source and not mix and match applicability.

I am agreeing.

Sort of.

Take Isis priests.

"Priests of Isis are, in actuality, multi-class wizard/priest characters. In the case of human worshipers, the normal prohibition against multi-class characters is waived."

This mentions that in the case of human worshipers it as an exception for humans, but this phrasing indicates humans are not the assumed only case.

Later in the Ravenloft book Domains of Dread it explicitly adopts a number of Legends & Lore pantheons as the default worshipped pantheons for different native Ravenloft demihumans.

I was looking at this again, and I'm a little confused by something. Is Legends & Lore saying:

1) all priests of Isis can be priest/mages.
OR
2) all priests of Isis have to be priest/mages, so Dwarves and Elves need not apply, but Half-Elves are ok, Gnome Priest/Illusionists get the hairy eyeball, but humans are allowed in the Isis club, even though they can't naturally multiclass?

I had an interesting idea for a character but even though my 2e DM is fairly permissive, I want to at least have some kind of argument other than "I guess?".

Bonus question! How does dual-classing interact with someone who wants to become a priest of specific mythos that allows for multiclassing?

 

[RobJN]

On a scale from 1-10, how much do people like THAC0?

.... which direction is that scale going...?

 

[Voadam]

I was looking at this again, and I'm a little confused by something. Is Legends & Lore saying:

1) all priests of Isis can be priest/mages.
OR
2) all priests of Isis have to be priest/mages, so Dwarves and Elves need not apply, but Half-Elves are ok, Gnome Priest/Illusionists get the hairy eyeball, but humans are allowed in the Isis club, even though they can't naturally multiclass?

"Priests of Isis are, in actuality, multi-class wizard/priest characters. In the case of human worshipers, the normal prohibition against multi-class characters is waived."

"Are" is different than "can be"

I would say that if you can be a specialty priest/priest of a specific mythoi and you choose Isis then you therefore are a mutliclass. It specifies humans as an exception to the normal multiclass but does not mention demihumans. So it is a DM call on whether demihumans who can not normally cleric/wizard multiclass can become specialty priests of Isis.

From a worldbuilding aspect it would be weird to have a culture of elves who worship the Pharaohonic pantheon who can be priests of every god in the pantheon but Isis because they as a race are not multiclass magical enough.

It is arguable though as if dwarves cannot be wizards because their inherent resistance to magic is so strong they cannot do wizard magic, then end running that through Isis worship is odd.

It is also weird that elves cannot be cleric-wizards to start though and half-elves can.

I would generally go with the concept that Isis specialty priests are a class that operates as a cleric/wizard multiclass.

I had an interesting idea for a character but even though my 2e DM is fairly permissive, I want to at least have some kind of argument other than "I guess?".

Bonus question! How does dual-classing interact with someone who wants to become a priest of specific mythos that allows for multiclassing?

I would stick with the theory that Isis priests are a single priest class that use mechanics of multiclassing so you could dual class into Isis priest or out of it (losing all Isis multiclassing advancement) to something else. Off hand I think I would probably not allow dual classing with a wizard class.

 

[cbwjm]

I'd probably be inclined to rebuild the priest/mage specialists to use the system from the FR books which let them cast (normally) a single school of wizard spells as priest spells or like the Azuth speciality priest that casts wizard spells as a wizard of half their level if you want them to have access to all wizard spells. Otherwise, I think @Voadam suggestions are good one.

 

[James Gasik]

Thanks! I decided to do something different anyways, but I was really stumped by what was intended by the writers of Legends & Lore (and of course, as we know, Mythos Priests/Specialty Priests are a HUGE mess in 2e).

 

[cbwjm]

I'd probably be inclined to rebuild the priest/mage specialists to use the system from the FR books which let them cast (normally) a single school of wizard spells as priest spells or like the Azuth speciality priest that casts wizard spells as a wizard of half their level if you want them to have access to all wizard spells. Otherwise, I think @Voadam suggestions are good one.

I had a look through powers and pantheon and realised there is a version of Isis specialist priests in it so that work is already done for me. The problem is, it limits worshippers to mulan humans and half-elves.

It is still a cleric/wizard multiclass but does allow specialists as well as generalists so if you wanted to expand it to other races, a gnome cleric/illusionist would be welcome. I'd allow elf cleric/wizards as well but maybe dwarves and halflings could be worshippers but lack the requirements to be priests of Isis since they can't be wizards.

 

[James Gasik]

The inability of Halflings and Dwarves to be Wizards always confused me. The stated reason was their "resistance to magic" (ie, the saving throw bonus against magic they get which isn't actually magic resistance) but Gnomes have the same trait and not only can be Wizards, but specialists. Elves have actual magic resistance against Charm spells, but can be Wizards and specialist Enchanters (and in the Cormanthyr book, double specialists in all schools!). Drow are infamously magic resistant, but can cast spells just fine.

Then you get weird things like how Centaurs and Minotaurs can be Wizards, but races that are inherently magical, like Pixies, cannot be.

But then just about anyone can become a priest because God magic is just fundamentally different. The way I see it, if you're getting Wizard spells from your god, such as how Math Mathonwy grants you the ability to function as a Wizard of your priest level -5, that might circumvent normal racial limitations. Though whether this would hold true for Isis-priests as well I'm not sure about.

Ultimately, it comes up to what the DM will allow, regardless of what the books say (or don't say). I'm sure if I showed up to game with a Half-Elf Mage 5/Priest 6 of Math Mathonwy I might get some odd looks, but it's no stranger (in my mind) than an Elf, Half-Elf, or Gnome being a multiclassed Bard/Mage, which the Bard's Handbook seems to be perfectly ok with, lol.

EDIT: failed to notice a rule in the Complete Bard's Handbook about Dwarves and Halflings, post corrected.

 

[Voadam]

I had a look through powers and pantheon and realised there is a version of Isis specialist priests in it so that work is already done for me. The problem is, it limits worshippers to mulan humans and half-elves.

It is still a cleric/wizard multiclass but does allow specialists as well as generalists so if you wanted to expand it to other races, a gnome cleric/illusionist would be welcome. I'd allow elf cleric/wizards as well but maybe dwarves and halflings could be worshippers but lack the requirements to be priests of Isis since they can't be wizards.

The 2e Forgotten Realms has a lot of dual options specialty priest options. The specialty priests in Forgotten Realms Adventures are different from the ones in Faiths & Avatars. The Egyptian ones in Powers & Pantheons are different from the ones in Legends & Lore. The individual FR ones that are overlapped with Legends & Lore ones (Tyr, Oghma, Silvanus, etc.) get their own FR versions. The demihuman gods in Demihuman Deities get different specialty priest mechanics from the ones in Monster Mythology.