D&D 5E On fairies and flying

[overgeeked]

Is this something that's actually happened to you?

What?

 

[BookTenTiger]

What?

Have you actually experienced as a DM or a player a DM feeling like they lose freedom because of a character creation choice, or is it something you made up for this conversation?

 

[jgsugden]

Read the rest of my post. I mention that.

It was in a separate post that you mentioned it - I was responding to your response to my post and had not seen your other post. Regardless - the notion that people's expectations have changed does not really impact whether flying does or does not work at low levels without ruining the game.

That is like saying, "I think it won't work, thus it can't."

There are a lot of us that have run really fun games with flight at low level in this edition (as well as prior editions). Inherently, that proves that it can be done with everyone having fun.

 

[overgeeked]

Have you actually experienced as a DM or a player a DM feeling like they lose freedom because of a character creation choice, or is it something you made up for this conversation?

Whenever I talk about limiting multiclassing, using harsher resting rules, variant encumbrance, limiting race choices, and/or banning any particular feats, spells, or options I have had players that go apoplectic. I've had players rage quit in the middle of a game because they were presented with an encounter that wasn't meant to be a fight...that they fought anyway...and lost. Badly. My favorite so far is the guy who thought mold earth made him an earthbender. The text of the spell indicates you can move a quantity of earth or stone 5ft as an action...he rage quit because I limited his kewl superpower to only moving a quantity of earth or stone 5ft as an action. You know...the actual text of the spell he took.

 

[cmad1977]

Flight at a low level is nothing to worry about.

 

[overgeeked]

It was in a separate post that you mentioned it - I was responding to your response to my post and had not seen your other post.

So despite knowing that I am aware that flight has been a thing for ages, you decided to pretend I didn't. Okay. That makes sense.

Regardless - the notion that people's expectations have changed does not really impact whether flying does or does not work at low levels without ruining the game.

But it's related. Players expect all options on the table. They expect multiclassing...despite it being optional. They expect feats...despite them being optional. They expect to start as superheroes and become gods, not to start as zeros and become heroes. So when DMs who are adverse to allowing flying PCs at 1st level speak up, the players freak out.

That is like saying, "I think it won't work, thus it can't."

Not at all. As per the opening post in the thread, I'm kind of on the fence about flying. I can see how it's cool for the player but also a nightmare for the DM. That's because I'm a player who wants to run a flying character and a DM who's run for flying characters...where it was a nightmare.

There are a lot of us that have run really fun games with flight at low level in this edition (as well as prior editions). Inherently, that proves that it can be done with everyone having fun.

Not really, no. It proves that you had fun with flying. The next obvious question is: what did you do in the game? What was the focus? Where and what were the adventures? What was changed to accommodate for flight? The escalation I mentioned up thread.

 

[billd91]

Right. But you do see what's happening there, right? Escalation. The PC now has this new toy they can use to make all those challenges not challenging...so you have to escalate the situation to compensate for it. You have to artificially make things harder to keep them challenging. What would otherwise be a challenge for a tier 2 party with regular access to the fly spell and magic items that allow flight is now used against a tier 1 party because of permanent PC flight. Because instead of zero to hero, it's superhero to god.

Is it really any different from designing challenges for any particular oddball combination of PCs the players throw at you? Challenges will be different depending on the class powers PCs have at their disposal too - I don't see how flight is all that different. Your gripe is just about the specific details. Sure, you can curate the list of choices available to the players in order to avoid having to make certain choices on your side. But if you feel the need to see the issue as a zero sum game where you're losing if the players are winning, maybe you're not approaching the issue with a healthy attitude.

It is to be hoped. Lately, most of the new to me players I deal with seem to just call out a skill, throw a d20, and expect to win.

Maybe you better hitch your pants up to your armpits and tell the kids to "Get outta yer yard!" After all ,the senior dinner at the supper club doesn't run all afternoon...

 

[Umbran]

Maybe you better hitch your pants up to your armpits and tell the kids to "Get outta yer yard!" After all ,the senior dinner at the supper club doesn't run all afternoon...

Mod Note:
You were doing great until you got here, and apparently decided to make it personally insulting.

Be respectful. Be kind. Don't act like a jerk. Please and thanks.

 

[abirdcall]

It is to be hoped. Lately, most of the new to me players I deal with seem to just call out a skill, throw a d20, and expect to win.

That's odd. I encountered that at the beginning of 5e when I learned the game with 3e players and that was what they were used to. Any player I've introduced to 5e fresh hasn't been like that for me.

Whenever I talk about limiting multiclassing, using harsher resting rules, variant encumbrance, limiting race choices, and/or banning any particular feats, spells, or options I have had players that go apoplectic. I've had players rage quit in the middle of a game because they were presented with an encounter that wasn't meant to be a fight...that they fought anyway...and lost. Badly. My favorite so far is the guy who thought mold earth made him an earthbender. The text of the spell indicates you can move a quantity of earth or stone 5ft as an action...he rage quit because I limited his kewl superpower to only moving a quantity of earth or stone 5ft as an action. You know...the actual text of the spell he took.

Yikes. I'm sorry you need to deal with that. I pretty much only play with friends and we have the attitude that we're all at the table to help each other have fun.

I did run into one player like that though when I made an open invite to the game to find a new player. They had a similar sort of attitude and had entitlement and selfishness issues. Needless to say they weren't invited back after the session (and they sent me a huge long rant on Facebook about how unfair the session was for them to boot).

 

[iserith]

It is to be hoped. Lately, most of the new to me players I deal with seem to just call out a skill, throw a d20, and expect to win.

This way of playing was more or less the expectation set forth by the rules in the two editions prior to D&D 5e. It's a common mode of play on actual play streams (saying you want to make a check, I mean). So people have simply carried on with that tradition even though it's not supported in D&D 5e.

As for flying PCs, it's never been an issue in any game I've run. Dungeons have ceilings. Dragons can fly. Strong winds are on the weather table. And most of the time the rest of the party can't fly so the party can't just skip over ground-based obstacles.