On flavour reasons alone, should longbows be exotic and repeating crossbows not?

[Huw]

Ignore any rules considerations about range, damage and rate of fire. Consider the historical facts:

• The longbow required intensive training to use properly
• The crossbow, even in its repeating form, is easy to use

Should the longbow be made an exotic weapon, and the repeating crossbow a martial or simple weapon then? Four options to choose from.

 

[IanB]

Longbow should likely remain a martial weapon proficiency, as it would not make a lot of sense for what is often considered a weapon of the common people to require a +1 BAB for access.

Lots of cultures have used "longbows" besides the intensely trained Welsh/English archers of the 1400s; I would argue that if you wanted to accurately represent that sort of "elite archer" in your game you would be better off doing so via giving them extra levels of warrior/fighter or giving them bows built for strength and a relatively high strength, rather than upping the needed proficiency for access to the longbow. The high barrier to entry for English longbowmen was primarily due to the heavy pull of the weapon from everything I've read; basically it would be a case of the weapon requiring more strength than special technique training.

So maybe a breakdown would be - normal everyday longbows would still be martial weapons, and english longbows would be represented by comp. longbows with a +2 strength bonus. Still martial, but a certain amount of "training" is represented by your normal 1st level warriors putting high stats into strength.

 

[hazmat]

Depends on the setting. I played in a home brew where you had to learn how to use a longbow by studying with the wood elves and anyone could use a crossbow. Fortunately, you didn't have to waste a feat to gain proficiency.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Longbow actually wasn't used by the common people, only by people trained from the age of 10ish to use it.

But I do disagree with the hand crossbow thing - they are not easy to reload and use properly.

 

[castro3nw]

Ignore any rules considerations about range, damage and rate of fire.

I'm sorry... I really can't answer this question.

"Ignoring the rules, where does this fit in the rules?"

 

[Huw]

Longbow should likely remain a martial weapon proficiency, as it would not make a lot of sense for what is often considered a weapon of the common people to require a +1 BAB for access.

Part of said intensive training would involve getting one level of warrior. They'd still be common people.

But I do disagree with the hand crossbow thing - they are not easy to reload and use properly.

Repeating, not hand.

I'm sorry... I really can't answer this question.

"Ignoring the rules, where does this fit in the rules?"

Picky. Okay, "Ignoring all rules except feat choices". I didn't want to start discussing changing how the weapons actually work, just "would it feel right if..."

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

While I know where you're coming from and my initial reaction was, yes, make longbow exotic, the fact that it's martial and the average joe commoner doesn't get access to martial weapons makes it hard enough to get as it is.

As someone else pointed out, taking a level in warrior solves that problem. In that case, I think the issue is whether or not you want your campaign to have a whole bunch of commoners with one or more levels of warrior, or whether you want to be more historically accurate and say they have straight commoner levels (in which case, they would have to burn a feat for EWP). If it's the latter, it might not be such a bad thing since humans start out with two feats and one could very easily be dedicated to EWP.

All that being said, it's too close to call in my books. And when it's too close to call, I stick with the status quo.

 

[Zad]

Given that this is the rules forum, not house rules, and the rules-as-written are the focus, it's hard to accept the introductory statements. But I tend to agree - making the longbow martial does an adequate job of limiting it. D&D is a reflection of reality and fantasy, not a nitty-gritty reality based system.

As for the repeater, I think that's probably more a question of game balance. Why would anyone use anything but a repeater if it were only martial? If everyone uses repeaters, it gives an odd flavor to the game. Ergo, it gets something to limit it.

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

As for the repeater, I think that's probably more a question of game balance. Why would anyone use anything but a repeater if it were only martial? If everyone uses repeaters, it gives an odd flavor to the game. Ergo, it gets something to limit it.

Not only that, but Exotic doesn't necessarily mean "difficult to use." It can easily be construed (and arguably more likely) to mean the weapon is rare. You need special training to use an exotic weapon partly because you're unfamiliar with it.

Repeating crossbows, no matter how easy to use, would likely be considered rare weapons and require some training for use that the average person (even the average martial person) would have to seek out (represented by a feat).

Remember, anyone can use an exotic weapon, they just can't use it well.

 

[Sejs]

Keep the longbow martial.

Make repeating crossbows the equivalent of composite bows - same proficiency category (simple) but more expensive.