D&D General On gatekeeping and the 'live-streaming edition wars'

[Sacrosanct]

But watching streams and playing are not equivalent experiences. At all. The things that are fun and entertaining about a good stream/video/podcast are not the same things that are fun and entertaining about playing the game. Asking the question "why not just play" not only fundamentally misunderstands the entertainment value of actual play, it is dismissive of it (which leads to that whole gatekeeping thing we're talking about).

For me, the biggest difference between watching and playing is active participation. When playing, I have control of my character. I can plan, role-play, have social interactions with the other players, etc. That is the funnest part of the game. It is a social game after all. Watching doesn't do that for me. I'm not saying people can't have fun watching, just expressing my own personal feelings.

 

[Reynard]

For me, the biggest difference between watching and playing is active participation. When playing, I have control of my character. I can plan, role-play, have social interactions with the other players, etc. That is the funnest part of the game. It is a social game after all. Watching doesn't do that for me. I'm not saying people can't have fun watching, just expressing my own personal feelings.

Right. Generally the fun and entertaining thing about watching actual plays is enjoying the performances put on by the participants, getting to see rules in action, seeing how other people do it (especially if they are playing an adventure you have also played), and just feeling cozy with RPG away from the table. Different experiences. Not everyone cares for those, for sure. But I think a lot of people dismiss actual play because they think it is supposed to be a replacement for playing or an inferior experience to playing, which I don't think is true for most people that like actual play.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think we'd need more data to say it's not a generational thing. I'll be honest, my gut feeling is that if you polled D&D fans as to their age and whether they watch CR (or streaming D&D in general), you'd see a higher percentage response among the 18-29 cohort than the 40-59 cohort. But that's a gut feeling.

Speaking as someone who works in a secondary school, my observation is 11-18 year olds watch almost exclusively streaming (in general, not necessarily Critical Roll). My parent's generation (80+) watch almost exclusively sheduled TV. The rest watch some mixture.

 

[Beleriphon]

You know, this reminds me of when I played Tomb Raider in college. My girlfriend loved sitting with me and watching as I played. She actually found it interesting and fun watching me figure things out and enjoyed the action, etc. of the game and considered herself a "fan."

That's a good point. My wife is a fan of the Fallout franchise, very specifically from Fallout 3 forward. In no small part it is because of the radio stations and music that can be played. She has never actually played one of the games, and she still hums the music from Fallout 3.

Sure, she doesn't know who Lenny is, or what a T-51B suit of power armour is or why it's different than a T-40A. But she's still a fan of the games, maybe not for the same reason I am but she's still a fan of the games. And I'd punch anybody square in the face if they try to tell her otherwise.

 

[Umbran]

I do write novels, but obviously the time commitment for writing a novel is MUCH greater than reading one.

Keep that thought...

While there is a slight time commitment to playing D&D (more if you are DMing) compared to watching livestreams, it isn't nearly the same or close to it.

Actually, it is. If I watch an episode of Critical Role, I use what, 4 hours of time?

If I bring a group together to play a game, I use four hours of my time, and four hours of each other person at the table. So, I need 4 person-hours of effort to watch, and like, 20 person-hours available to actually play. In terms of cost and availability, that's not a trivial difference.

There is a big reason why one of the largest complaints you see around here is, "scheduling is a major barrier to play". Sessions cancel. Groups fall apart due to Real Life. But the stream is always there, a click away, and I don't need to herd cats to engage in it.

(And, for the record, that's a rhetorical "I". I personally don't watch CR, or any other streamed games.)

Instead of trying to be controversial, I ask you respect that and thank you.

I am not trying to be controversial. I am trying to point out that "why watch when you can play" is rather glib and oversimplified.

 

[Dire Bare]

While I find watching live-streaming personally silly (why not play instead of watch I would ask?), if others do it as a form of entertainment it is not any different that watching a play, movie, reading a book, going to a comedy club etc.

As far as if someone is a "D&D fan" simply because they watch live-streaming, that is perfectly fine. I am a fan of football. Do I play it? Nope, but I LOVE watching it.

So, if I've got my regular weekly game on a Friday night . . . . watching Critical Role at some other point in the week is silly? I should be gaming during all available free time? If I've got time to watch Critical Role, I should always be playing instead?

I'm pushing this to the ridiculous extreme, but the idea that time spent watching a streaming game is better spent actually gaming is ridiculous. There's all sorts of reasons why some folks play and others watch, and some watch while others play, and some do both, watch and play. The need to draw lines is gatekeeping, if mildly so.

 

[Dire Bare]

I don't see any issue with someone who watches CR thinking of themselves as a fan of D&D, and I would ask them if they had any interest in coming to our table to watch a live game, and maybe join in if they thought they would like it.

This got me thinking, I might have to upgrade my fantasy gaming room (that I'll never build) to include an audience section!

 

[DemoMonkey]

Has anyone - ANYONE - in this thread, actually said that people who watch streams like CR, but don't actually play, are not D&D fans.

And if not, then ... what exactly is the argument about?

 

[Reynard]

Has anyone - ANYONE - in this thread, actually said that people who watch streams like CR, but don't actually play, are not D&D fans.

And if not, then ... what exactly is the argument about?

It's mostly about people who wanted Dark Sun being mad that they didn't get it, near as I can tell.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

A lot of this is hardly new though, in 2nd edition there were tons of people buying material (particularly Dragon and Dungeon magazines - I remember reading letters to the editor about people who read the adventures for the storylines) who never played. Hell, a ton of people purchasing Forgotten Realms material were purchasing it for the "lore", rather than as game material.

Now that there's fewer products released for D&D, that same kick can be got from watching streaming and live play.