On "Illusionism" (+)

This happens all the time, and IMO the priority should be to honour what the character would do. And this isn't just restricted to playing the character into its grave; far more common IME is playing a character out of the party if-when leaving the party is what the character would do.

Well it's up to the player to decide. Sometimes there may be a choice that's clearly in-character, but at the same time, people can be very surprising. So what the character wants is always going to be up to the player. They can justify it one way or another.

But, I do think there's a level of honesty or integrity to do what you think the character would do and then stick to it. Especially since the player is largely responsible for deciding what the character cares about.

If that choice is presented as an integral part of the fiction, then it's up to each player at the time based (ideally) on what the character would do. If it's being presented in the metagame, as in "Bob, tell ya what - if you're willing to accept your character losing its ancestral home, I'll change the narrative such that you survive what's happening here", that's awful: it shouldn't be presented at all.

I don't think that giving the player a choice is awful at all, nor do I think that the choice must be only at the character or player level and not both.

In the example I just shared in my last post from my Spire game, it was largely the player's choice. Let the character die as the dice have determined, or defy death and come back changed. He asked what the change would be, and we discussed it and came up with something fitting, and then he chose that. In the fiction, we established an explanation for it, and so that's what the characters experienced.

This discussion about death as a consequence seems to me to be largely focused on the player... that it's consequential for a player to lose a beloved character, as @Celebrim described. It would seem weird to me then to try and remove the player from the choice entirely. Certainly the choice is what would make it consequential for the player.

I can't tell if we're in agreement here or not. I think we are as to the player-side outcome, but maybe not as to how the choice arises and-or is presented...?

I don't know. I think most of the consequences you listed were either equivalent of character death (like petrification) or were temporary or possibly easily mitigated (level loss, ability loss).

I tend to think of consequences being moer about what the player and character care about.

Basically, killing a character can pretty much kill that session of play as well.

That's possible, sure. I think this is the kind of thing to discuss at session zero... the likelihood of this based on the rules, and how it's to be handled if/when it happens.
 

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Good Society is a Regency RPG in the spirit of Austen. It's well received and popular, and certainly not the only rpg in this vein.

I'm aware of it. I don't own mostly because it's incredibly expensive for a game I'd probably never play and would only be reading out of my interest in game rules and processes of play.

I did want to illustrate that games can have wildly different stakes in an Austen inspired game. The stakes facing the characters would be: Do I marry for security or love? Can I hide my nefarious background from the people in my new home town? Can I escape the bad reputation of my family? How far will I go to gain my heart's desire?

I guess my problem is that I have a hard time understanding those as gameable stakes. "Do I marry for security or love?" is a very difficult stake to play out in a game because the consequences of a marriage choice take years to play out and often involve life processes that are difficult to simulate - the daily tedium and grind of life. Austen takes this on herself in some of her works, noting that marrying for love without security leaves you with little time to enjoy your love and potentially a lot of resentment for the uncomfortable and unromantic life that results. So how are you going to play that out, and in the context of illusionism ultimately this is going to come down to the GM validating or invalidating your choice by whether or not your life goes wrong and your spouse remains faithful and attentive and so forth. And if you don't play it out, then how did the choice matter in the slightest?

Likewise, "Can I hide my nefarious background from the people in my new hometown?" is a goal, but not a stake. What are the consequences if you don't? And what does this actually entail that is active rather than passive on your part? And how does it depend on you and not the GM to just decide whether or not some gossip arrives because someone knows someone?

And for that matter, "Can I escape the bad reputation of my family?" is again a goal and not a stake. What are the consequences if you don't? And what does this actually entail that is active rather than passive on your part? And how does it depend on you and not the GM to just decide whether or not some gossip arrives because someone knows someone?

As far as, "How far will I go to gain my heart's desire?" I don't see that as being particularly specific to a system or setting, and if the answer doesn't include "Murder?" or something similarly dastardly, well, do we really know the answer?
 
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There always are. The possibility of death doesn't preclude other sorts of consequences.

But, again, my stake on this was simply that just because I did not want to kill a PC as a GM, did not mean that I would refuse to kill a PC as the logical consequences of their actions. I agree PC death is terrible for the game. But if you don't allow it to happen and you use Illusionism to remove the possibility of it happening, then I feel those consequences are worse for the game - especially in any game that features violent conflict.

Sure. Wanting to do something and having to do something are different matters.

I think the problem is that earlier editions of D&D, there weren't many options intermediate to death, except for the GM to intervene. Realistically, how many monsters take prisoners? How do you work around death by critical? So spake the dice: a grisly death for thee! Nor were many fights not "to the death".

TomB
 

Sure. Wanting to do something and having to do something are different matters.

I think the problem is that earlier editions of D&D, there weren't many options intermediate to death, except for the GM to intervene. Realistically, how many monsters take prisoners? How do you work around death by critical? So spake the dice: a grisly death for thee! Nor were many fights not "to the death".

TomB

Well, Raise Dead and Resurrection have always been available going back to the early days, so death has never really been a permanent consequence in D&D, except perhaps at low levels.

As to the danger of encounters... not all editions had critical hits, so there wasn't a need to plan for them. How many monsters take prisoners and fight to the death has always been up to the GM, though some editions have had morale rules and the like, which may have a say.
 

On term that I use a lot is “Illusionism”. The standard definition of “Illusionism” is GM’s offering player’s a game choice which appears to matter but which does not in fact matter because the GM uses his role as secret keeper and as narrator of the fiction to hide the player’s lack of agency from them. This isn’t a bad definition, but I tend to use the term more broadly for any situation where the player believes they are playing one game but actually they are playing another. This can actually extend to situations where even the GM believes one game is being played when in fact the real game is very different – that is the GM themselves buy into the illusion.

“Illusionism” is normally used in the context of RPGs, but in fact is not limited to them. One of the best ways to explain the general theory of illusionism is to look at the classic Paul Newman and Tom Cruise movies “The Color of Money” which at its heart is a movie about “Illusionism”. In the movie, Newman plays a pool hustler Eddie who discovers a talented pool player played by Tom Cruise named Vincent who bets on the outcome of his games. Newman tells Vincent that he is playing the game wrong, and that the secret of winning is to always make it seem like his opponent can win. That is to say, the secret of getting the outcome Vincent is playing for – money – is to sucker his opponent’s into thinking that they can win by playing less well than he is able. Eddie then teaches Vincent the art of Illusionism, where the audience thinks they are playing one game but really they are playing another. The idea is to win by as little as possible and only at the last moment. Later in the movie, Eddie realizes that as he’s gotten older he’s allowed his pool game to slip. And Eddie goes back to playing as well as he is able in order to prove himself out of pride and the love of competition, and not for the money. He encounters Vincent in a major professional pool tournament, and after a dramatic game barely beats Vincent. But then Vincent tells Eddie that he in fact threw the game and offers to split the money from his hustle with Eddie. This gets Eddie furious because he discovers the game he thought he was playing was an Illusion. He thought he was playing a competitive game with Vincent, but in fact Vincent was playing for money off a bet that he would lose.

Now in the context of an RPG, “Illusionism” is neither an unmitigated good nor an unmitigated bad. It’s a tool in the GM’s toolbox and it’s a powerful tool that every GM will use from time to time. The trouble with it is that like all the railroading tools that a GM can use to produce a particular outcome, it’s easy to overuse it and a little of it goes a long way. A game that overuses Illusionism becomes a game where the participants believe that they have agency but in fact they do not – in other words, too much illusionism and you go from using a railroading tool to running a railroad. This becomes particularly problematic when the players see through the Illusionism and realize that they have been tricked and the game was rigged in some fashion – either for them or against them. Discovering that you won or lost not because of anything you did, but merely because the GM decided on it is for many players a very deflating or frustrating discovery.

Referring back to my essay on Railroading, “Schrodinger’s Map” is one example of illusionism. For those that don’t want to follow the link, the idea behind “Schrodinger’s Map” is the GM determines where everything in the dungeon is only after the PC’s have made their choice which way to go. In this way you can always ensure that the PC’s path through the dungeon is the ideal one for the story you want to produce. Similarly, you can use something like “Schrodinger’s Stat Block” to ensure that the climatic encounter with the BBEG always is in fact climatic, with the PC’s struggling until at the dramatic moment when they are almost out of resources that one good roll turns the battle in the PC’s favor. For example, instead of giving the BBEG a fixed number of hit points, you can just simply decide when the BBEG goes down and then mark that down as the BBEG’s hit points retroactively.

Most commonly in my own game I use “Schrondinger’s Time Warps”. A lot of times in my game I know that certain events are supposed to happen at some point, but since games often proceed in ways I can’t plan for, and since I don’t always have accurate distances between X and Y or precise locations of everything that is happening off stage, I have a lot of freedom as a GM to determine when things happen and how long it takes for something to happen. For example, in a recent game I knew that reinforcements were coming to support both sides of a conflict, but had no way of knowing exactly how far away each group was. Since I was motivated as a GM for the scene to play out in a climatic way, I determined at some point that the bad guys would be reinforced in 10 rounds and the good guys reinforcements would arrive 3 rounds later. This I thought would produce an optimal play experience if everything worked out like I hoped. As it happened, 10 rounds turned out to be the perfect choice where the PC’s were able to stop the BBEG just at the last moment with every dice throw mattering. But I of course could have fudged on my prior decision if in fact I didn’t like how things were going and no one would have been the wiser because no one knew what my decision had been or had more accurate information about the fictional state than I did. Had I wanted to, I could have picked numbers out of the air that heavily favored my BBEG and forced the chase to continue in a different sphere of play and into a different scene.

The trouble you have in these situations and the reason the temptation to Illusionism is so insidious is that you can’t ever actually be certain you are being fair and unbiased. If you are making any choice as GM at run time during a game, there is always the chance that even unconsciously you are making choices that favor your desired outcome. And indeed, my desired outcome was primarily that the be dramatic, and the numbers I choice whether by luck or skill on my part led to exactly that. Part of me was a little disappointed that the BBEG didn’t get away in that scene, but not nearly as disappointed as I would have been had I had a TPK or ultimately had an undramatic finish to the adventure. So while I had backup plans to the PC’s losing at that moment so that the story would go on, ultimately I got what I wanted.

Which raises the question, did I just do to the players what Vincent did to Fast Eddie? Did I throw the fight in order to give the players the satisfying dramatic conclusion to the adventure that it needed? I have no way of knowing for sure. I certainly tried to make on behalf of the NPC’s the rational choices based on the information they had and the resources I had given them, and I did make the fight challenging. But the fact that some illusionism was used means I don’t have objective answers. And there is the problem with it.

One counter argument to what I’m discussing is that if the players are having fun, what does it matter? If Vincent doesn’t cut Eddie in on the deal, and leaves Eddie thinking that he beat Vincent fair and square, then didn’t both sides get the experience that they wanted? And there is some measure of truth to that. It is just a game and ultimately, unlike Vincent’s “Honor Among Thieves” decision to cut his mentor in on a hustle, there isn’t really any stakes besides everyone having fun. But in my experience players aren’t stupid. I play with a lot of really smart guys, and sooner or later if I’m fudging everything they are going to figure that out, and for some of them that’s going to be like winning a chess game against a superior player and then finding out he through the game to bolster your self-esteem.

I put a (+) on this thread not to discourage people from arguing for or against the utility of Illusionism, but to cut out discussions where people claim the whole concept doesn’t exist. These are usually arguments based on the idea that everything is illusionism and it’s all a fantasy game so none of its real. And while it’s true that none of it is real, I think it should be obvious to most people that look at the definitions I offered above that they do describe something real. It does in fact matter if the goblin has 8 hit points versus the goblin goes down to any hit that occurs after the third round versus the goblin goes down to any hit after a PC has lost 80% of their hit points and so forth. There is a real difference between “Left goes to the dragon and right goes to the magic sword” and “the first tunnel taken always goes to the magic sword and the second always goes to the dragon”. There is a real difference between “In the next room there are 4 orcs that will respond to the sounds of combat and arrive 3 rounds later” and “If the battle versus the orcs is over in less than 3 rounds, then draw an additional room accessible through a secret door and have four more orcs come through that door.”

A more interesting question, and one I may revisit in a later thread, is if a game explicitly empowers and encourages the GM to use illusionism, is it still Illusionism[?] That is to say, if the players know “the first tunnel taken always goes to the magic sword and the second always goes to the dragon” or “The BBEG goes down to any blow that occurs in the seventh round of combat or later”, can we say that is illusionism since it is no longer true that the players aren’t playing the game they think they are playing? And my answer here is, “Maybe”. If the GM is really transparent about the fact that it doesn’t matter if the players go left or right, or if the GM is really transparent about the fact the damage dealt in the first six rounds of combat don’t matter, then I agree that isn’t illusionism. But in my experience these systems that encourage illusionism neither encourage transparency nor are they consistent, since they will define a base game without illusionism while empowering the GM to modify that base game as he sees fit to make a better story. As such, generally it’s still illusionism.

A final interesting question might be, “Do you care?” Not every player’s aesthetics are going to be harmed by illusionism, even if the cover is pulled back and they see how it happened. In particular, players with no real commitment to Challenge, Fantasy, or Competition probably don’t care that they are just winning because the GM thinks it’s best for the story or losing because the GM thinks that’s best for the story as long as the result is a good story. You don’t care if your illusion of success is undermined if you never cared about illusion of success in the first place. As such there are tables that can happily play games that are entirely high illusionism where none of their choices really matter all that much except in the color of play.

Anyway, that's long enough for now. Interested to hearing your positive thoughts on the use of illusionism, when you are OK with it or not OK with it, how much effort you as a GM put into avoiding it, whether it bothers you, and examples of when you've used it and you thought it worked out well, or conversely examples of when it was employed that ultimately felt like failure.
Yes you threw the fight because you admitted in the previous paragraph that you would've been MORE disappointed with a TPK or an "undramatic finish" than the BBEG not escaping.

If the players are not playing to 1) pass the time, 2) learn the game or 3) make money, they're probably playing the game to have fun. Whatever the motivation is, if it's being met it doesn't matter how or what you're playing.

As long as the group is in the car with GM illusions and the game encourages it, run with it.

GMs should care: I mean it's a group-based activity and everyone should be on the same page regarding gameplay. When "GM Helicopter-Mom" puts their story ahead of how the actual game plays, I'd say that you aren't playing that game and why not play something else that enables the kind of Plot-Armor we see in Hollywood films.

Trade shoes: what if a GM ran say Tomb of Horrors and the players negotiated all the dangers and slew(?) Acererak! Then you find out they all had read the module pre-session and figured out how to beat the adventure. Fair to think that GM might be a little miffed. Same with players whose PCs are secretly shielded from harm by the GM. Winning is fun but sometimes losing is even more epic when it's on the players' terms (like the infamous Shadowrun C.L.U.E. Files). If I'm (re)watching Die Hard it's always a hoot even though I know what's coming. If I'm playing Die Hard the RPG I wanna 86 Gruber & Crew because i made some good decisions and the dice went my way - not because some GM wanted a Happy Xmas Ending™
 

Yes you threw the fight because you admitted in the previous paragraph that you would've been MORE disappointed with a TPK or an "undramatic finish" than the BBEG not escaping.

Well, then you understand my motivations better than I do, despite all the self-reflection and self-critique that I outlined in discussing this.

The important thing to me though is not whether I threw the fight or not, but to emphasize the importance of the observation that a GM will frequently find themselves in a situation where despite all intentions of being neutral and unbiased and "playing to see what happens" they will have to make judgment calls where they can't really know whether their biases influenced their decisions.

This gets deep in that you claim to know my motivations but remember that while doing this I'm also second guessing my motivations. Maybe I wanted the BBEG to not escape mainly because I would have felt guilty about setting up the PC's to fail just so my BBEG could escape (a cliche of bad GMing) and so I erred on the side of overcompensating for that precisely because I did want the BBEG to escape so that I could have another dramatic scene. (The BBEG had already escaped from the PCs once before.)

This is all just a special instance of my observation that metagaming is not a bad thing, but rather an inevitable thing. The bad thing is being placed in a position where you can't help but metagame. Participants shouldn't be asked not to metagame as if that was a reasonable demand, but rather participants should try not to be put in a position where metagaming is possible. For players this means not seeking out OOC information that your character shouldn't have, and for GMS this means not passing meta information to the players and not putting yourself in a position where you have no choice but to improvise freely.

You mention later how a GM that learns that his players have cheated by acquiring meta information about the story ought to be miffed, to which I agree. But consider the reverse situation: a GM asks his players if they have ever read 'Tomb of Horrors' and one them honestly answers, "Yes". But rather than realizing he can't run ToH as written, he tells the player "Well, just don't metagame." This is not a fair or reasonable request, and the GM that makes this request ought not be upset when the player then comes up with the solution to a puzzle. After all, it's equally metagaming for the player to deliberately fail challenges just because they know the solution. Once the meta knowledge is out there, you can't take it back.

As long as the group is in the car with GM illusions and the game encourages it, run with it.

I don't know what you mean by this, because your next two paragraphs seem to contradict this advice.
 



Much of what is called Illusionism can also be called participationism. When the game first starts, the GM tells the player's the premise: "We're playing this campaign called 'Tiamat XXIII' which is abut fighting dragons and their followers across royal courts and deep wilderness. Please make characters that are interested in participating in this grand adventure". The GM then guides the PCs down this adventure, with the informed consent of the players.

Illusionism is often used as a derogatory term for this fully viable style of play. . I really prefer "participationism".

Adding a decision tree that was originally quite condescending but I added som additional playstyles to match more tastes.
 

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Had you asked me before reading this thread if I thought that fudging rolls was part of illusionism, for good or ill, I would have said no, at least not generally or as a subset of any definition thereof.
 

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