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D&D 5E On rulings, rules, and Twitter, or: How Sage Advice Changed

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
There's no logic there, just assertion. You never say why it's flexible, or what flexible means, to you. That's the ask.

So, to you, flexibility is setting options? The difference between playing Eberron and Barovia? That's at least an answer, so thanks. However, if flexible is just setting, how is 5e more flexible than any other edition of D&D? The can ALL do this.

Here's where we're going to disagree. The stylistic change is very slight, given the range of actual possibility across all RPGs. Again, we've had some long arguments and intractable differences about how the game works, but your players would be just fine at my table and my players at yours. This is pretty much true of D&D in general. It's only if you're making extensive changes to the rules, or ignoring them, that differences occur, but that's not a feature of 5e, it's a feature of people.

No, I don't say there's no flexibility, I'm saying it's not actually all that flexible.

Nothing you've provided wasn't possible in older editions, though. I'm not seeing the specialness. Critical Role started with Pathfinder, which is essentially 3.x.

Yup, if you're making up the rules, there's not much system there to flex. This is, again, not a feature of the system, but a feature of people.
You do you. I've given my opinion, which is all it is at the end of the day. You don't get to tell me my opinion is wrong.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You do you. I've given my opinion, which is all it is at the end of the day. You don't get to tell me my opinion is wrong.
There are plenty of cases where you can be told your opinion is wrong. It's not an impenetrable shield. If you have the opinion that the Earth is flat, for instance, I can very much say you are wrong. But, I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong, I'm saying you haven't provided any support for your opinion. Everything you've pointed out was possible in previous editions of D&D.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
There are plenty of cases where you can be told your opinion is wrong. It's not an impenetrable shield. If you have the opinion that the Earth is flat, for instance, I can very much say you are wrong. But, I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong, I'm saying you haven't provided any support for your opinion. Everything you've pointed out was possible in previous editions of D&D.
The shape of the earth is objective, opinion is subjective. I've said what I think, I don't care whether you think I've "justified" anything or not. I'm also not getting into edition wars because that's not productive.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The shape of the earth is objective, opinion is subjective. I've said what I think, I don't care whether you think I've "justified" anything or not. I'm also not getting into edition wars because that's not productive.
yeesh. I disagree with a lot of the stuff you say about other editions of DnD, but yikes. What's the line where disrespect becomes against the rules? Bc i feel like that poster has, in aggregate of their replies to you, probably passed it.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Pictures of cats.
download (27).jpg
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
yeesh. I disagree with a lot of the stuff you say about other editions of DnD, but yikes. What's the line where disrespect becomes against the rules? Bc i feel like that poster has, in aggregate of their replies to you, probably passed it.
I have no problem with people disagreeing, I'm sure if I look at posts I made a few months ago I may well wonder what I was on that day (hint: probably lack of sleep and/or stress). But yeah, after a point just agree to disagree.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
The shape of the earth is objective, opinion is subjective. I've said what I think, I don't care whether you think I've "justified" anything or not. I'm also not getting into edition wars because that's not productive.
Ah, so flexibility is entirely subjective, in your book. If this is the case, why argue back against any claims that it's not very flexible? If your opinion that it is subjectively flexible is outside of criticism, then so is that other case, but yet you have engaged that claim with a counter. Or, are you not countering the argument that 5e is not very flexible?

Personally, I think flexibility is something that can be objectively defined and discussed.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
Ah, so flexibility is entirely subjective, in your book. If this is the case, why argue back against any claims that it's not very flexible? If your opinion that it is subjectively flexible is outside of criticism, then so is that other case, but yet you have engaged that claim with a counter. Or, are you not countering the argument that 5e is not very flexible?

Personally, I think flexibility is something that can be objectively defined and discussed.
Dude, I'm done. Have a good one.
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Just a note: there have been numerous reports of inordinately aggressive posting rhetoric. Nothing actionable YET. But enough of it has been on the borderline of incivility that it‘s making things difficult for the staff.

Please, if you could, Dial it back a notch.
 
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The only genre 5e does well is D&D. You can do D&D in space, you can do post-apocalypse D&D, and you can do D&D noir (which is very weird). But it's nearly impossible for 5e to not be D&D. The different flavors of D&D you can do aren't full genres, but rather some genre flavor sprinkled on top of D&D.
I will agree with this. My go-to game is Savage Worlds. It's a flexible, genre-neutral system that encourages pulp action adventure. It can do fantasy, science fiction, gothic horror, and spaghetti westerns. It does them all very well...but it only does them in shades of Savage Worlds. Every Savage Worlds game is going to have big gunfights with a lot of miniatures on the battlefield because that's what the game is about.

In that same vein, every D&D game can do different genres, but they're all D&D. D&D meets science fiction (Spelljammer)! D&D meets gothic horror (Ravenloft)! D&D meets post-apocalypse (Dark Sun)! The system's conceits define and constrain it. There are boundaries in place that D&D cannot reach beyond. Hit point attrition, resource management, Vancian spells, classes, saving throws, the ability scores, etc. Your game might cross out the word wizard and replace it with "decker," you might call spells "programs," you might change hit points to "stamina," but the basic gameplay remains unchanged.

It's a bit tautological, but a thing is defined as itself. D&D is D&D.
 

mrpopstar

Sparkly Dude
I will agree with this. My go-to game is Savage Worlds. It's a flexible, genre-neutral system that encourages pulp action adventure. It can do fantasy, science fiction, gothic horror, and spaghetti westerns. It does them all very well...but it only does them in shades of Savage Worlds. Every Savage Worlds game is going to have big gunfights with a lot of miniatures on the battlefield because that's what the game is about.

In that same vein, every D&D game can do different genres, but they're all D&D. D&D meets science fiction (Spelljammer)! D&D meets gothic horror (Ravenloft)! D&D meets post-apocalypse (Dark Sun)! The system's conceits define and constrain it. There are boundaries in place that D&D cannot reach beyond. Hit point attrition, resource management, Vancian spells, classes, saving throws, the ability scores, etc. Your game might cross out the word wizard and replace it with "decker," you might call spells "programs," you might change hit points to "stamina," but the basic gameplay remains unchanged.

It's a bit tautological, but a thing is defined as itself. D&D is D&D.
Agreed that Dungeons & Dragons is not a genre.

Heroic fantasy, sword and sorcery, epic fantasy, mythic fantasy, dark fantasy, intrigue, mystery, swashbuckling, war, and wuxia are genres (of fiction).

You can flavor D&D with genre, but it remains D&D.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Agreed that Dungeons & Dragons is not a genre.

Heroic fantasy, sword and sorcery, epic fantasy, mythic fantasy, dark fantasy, intrigue, mystery, swashbuckling, war, and wuxia are genres (of fiction).

You can flavor D&D with genre, but it remains D&D.
At this point, D&D is a genre -- it has a definable and referenceable set of tropes that pervade the experience and create stories that are identifiably D&D. The system does this genre well, but can't escape it because many of these tropes are baked into the game system. As such, you're only sprinkling in other genres onto the D&D genre.
 

mrpopstar

Sparkly Dude
At this point, D&D is a genre -- it has a definable and referenceable set of tropes that pervade the experience and create stories that are identifiably D&D. The system does this genre well, but can't escape it because many of these tropes are baked into the game system. As such, you're only sprinkling in other genres onto the D&D genre.
Dungeons & Dragons is a roleplaying game. Heroic fantasy is the assumed genre.

I'm glad we reached this part, though, where there's tacit acknowledgment that the rules found in Chapter 4 of the Player's Handbook do something specific in defining and reinforcing the tropes D&D is famous for.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Dungeons & Dragons is a roleplaying game. Heroic fantasy is the assumed genre.
Yes, D&D is a roleplaying game. It's also a genre. People don't say, "I wanna play heroic fantasy," they say, "I wanna play D&D." What that means isn't that they're looking for the heroic fantasy tropes, but rather the D&D tropes. Heroic fantasy isn't the only genre flavoring that D&D is capable.

The D&D genre is a separate thing from heroic fantasy.
I'm glad we reached this part, though, where there's tacit acknowledgment that the rules found in Chapter 4 of the Player's Handbook do something specific in defining and reinforcing the tropes D&D is famous for.
I don't follow you here at all. I don't see how backgrounds, BIFTs, and setting your character's height and weight establish the D&D genre, especially since it existed long before that chapter, and exist independently of your character having a background at all, much less BIFTs. The D&D genre is largely defined by and baked into the way combat is central, the focus on group-identity/play, and zero-to-hero. None of that relies on Chapter 4 stuff -- it exists even if you excise Chapter 4.
 

mrpopstar

Sparkly Dude
Yes, D&D is a roleplaying game. It's also a genre. People don't say, "I wanna play heroic fantasy," they say, "I wanna play D&D." What that means isn't that they're looking for the heroic fantasy tropes, but rather the D&D tropes. Heroic fantasy isn't the only genre flavoring that D&D is capable.

The D&D genre is a separate thing from heroic fantasy.
If you were to check the Player's Handbook out from the library, you would find it under the genre "fantasy," or maybe "science fiction," but certainly not "D&D."

I don't follow you here at all. I don't see how backgrounds, BIFTs, and setting your character's height and weight establish the D&D genre, especially since it existed long before that chapter, and exist independently of your character having a background at all, much less BIFTs. The D&D genre is largely defined by and baked into the way combat is central, the focus on group-identity/play, and zero-to-hero. None of that relies on Chapter 4 stuff -- it exists even if you excise Chapter 4.
Dungeons & Dragons is famous for its nine alignments, within which you will find a trope.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
If you were to check the Player's Handbook out from the library, you would find it under the genre "fantasy," or maybe "science fiction," but certainly not "D&D."
I'm not sure what your point is, here. Are library filing systems definitional for genre? Because they don't have a heroic fiction section, either.
Dungeons & Dragons is famous for its nine alignments, within which you will find a trope.
True, but that's been heavily toned down for the last two editions. I can leave that space blank on my sheet in 5e and it doesn't change how the game plays.
 


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