D&D 5E On Saving Throws (a Monster Manual Analysis)

Croesus

Adventurer
Some useful information here. Since the analysis does not include any info on spells, I'm not inclined to give much weight to its conclusions about the frequency of specific saves. For example, my group recently finished Princes of the Apocalypse and I can say with some authority that Dex saves were extremely common (all those darn fireballs).

I appreciate all the work the OP put into this and would enjoy seeing a similar analysis (by level and class) of spell saves. While such an analysis would be equally limited in its conclusions, it would be thought-provoking, which is always good.

Quick edit: At least in the games I've played, Con saves are far and away the most common. Not because of the MM, but because of the concentration mechanic.
 
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thethain

First Post
The idea the Dex is king is in comparison to STR for which to use as a melee character primary stat, Con need not apply unless you intend to defeat your opponents by living a long healthy life far away from them. A Str or Dex combatant very likely has Con as their secondary stat.

Dex affects initiative, and stealth, and thieves tools, which come up in pretty much every game.

And counting saves while ignoring spells is... misguided..

If you actually look into the SRD Spellbook, You will see that Reflex, Fortitude, and Will are still reigning champs.
12 use STR saves.
48 use DEX saves.
31 use CON,
34 use WIS,
2 use INT (although maze uses an INT CHECK, not save, so maybe 3)
12 use CHA
(Another 21 are attack rolls, which MIGHT be affected by dex, or even con or wis in for barbarians or monks)

Lets look at sample traps while we are at it...
Dex 4
Con 2
Also many magic traps trigger spells, which again usually targets Dex.


So yes, if you intend to run a game in which there is no magic and there are no traps, then by all means, Dex loses a lot of its impressiveness. But, if you do actually intend for those to exist, then at some point you are going to run into 8d6 worth of fireball.
 

Erechel

Explorer
The idea the Dex is king is in comparison to STR for which to use as a melee character primary stat, Con need not apply unless you intend to defeat your opponents by living a long healthy life far away from them. A Str or Dex combatant very likely has Con as their secondary stat.

Dex affects initiative, and stealth, and thieves tools, which come up in pretty much every game.

And counting saves while ignoring spells is... misguided..

If you actually look into the SRD Spellbook, You will see that Reflex, Fortitude, and Will are still reigning champs.
12 use STR saves.
48 use DEX saves.
31 use CON,
34 use WIS,
2 use INT (although maze uses an INT CHECK, not save, so maybe 3)
12 use CHA
(Another 21 are attack rolls, which MIGHT be affected by dex, or even con or wis in for barbarians or monks)

Lets look at sample traps while we are at it...
Dex 4
Con 2
Also many magic traps trigger spells, which again usually targets Dex.


So yes, if you intend to run a game in which there is no magic and there are no traps, then by all means, Dex loses a lot of its impressiveness. But, if you do actually intend for those to exist, then at some point you are going to run into 8d6 worth of fireball.

Traps are by no means tied to Dexterity at all. In fact, most of them have attacks instead of saves. And yes, Dexterity affects AC, but so do Strength, as you need certain tresholds covered in order to use heavy armor: the highest basic AC comes, in fact, from strong characters (20 from shield and plate), vs 19 from dextrous characters. You could increase more than that with a feat (half plate and Medium Armor Master), but with an Armor feat you can also increase your durability giving your character DR 3 against BPS damage, which doesn't sound like a lot, but in fact it is when you factor multiple attacks (from one or multiple creatures). I have two characters with HAM feat in my table, and they are basically immortal against waves of enemies.

There are also a LOT of Constitution saves in traps (EG: anything including poison needles). And you can also trigger Strength traps, like falling debris or rolling rocks. And also, jumping is strength-controlled. I cannot count how many times the (10th level) rogue and elf wizard fell to simple pit traps having detected them, just because they couldn't jump over and failed their checks. The paladin and the fighter just jumped over them, not even needing a check (str 20 allows really long jumps).

Even with that covered, as opposite to monsters, the main effort is to avoid traps, not fall for them, so it's better to have a high Perception/Investigation (ruling) than high DEX for traps. That way, you avoid traps altogether. So, no, Dex isn't king over traps also.

That's different to say that Dexterity is useless. It isn't. Is very useful, specially for stealth and rogue's tools. But also Athletics, that govern anything physical (and has combat applications too, like Dexterity, that governs over Initiative).

As for the spells, I know that many are dex saves. I never denied it. Also I didn't count them, as spellcaster monsters are scarce and have extensive spell lists. I'll upload a list of spellcaster monsters when I reach home. And they also don't endure enough to use their spells. I do not lie to you: the last time I've seen a fireball in the hands of a DM was more than 5 years ago (playing AD&D). It is much more common to have spells from the player's side. Casting spells as a monster isn't often the best option, an when it is, it's usually a defensive/controlling spell (like Entangle or Shield). As I've said, this could vary a lot, but it isn't a joke that most of the Dex saves come from creatures above 10th level, when damage is more a nuisance to the players that a real threat. It is true that most monsters use Strength saves than Dex saves, and from them they are much more common (it is more common to use several lesser CR monsters in late levels than using one higher CR monsters at early levels). YMMV.
 

Erechel

Explorer
The idea the Dex is king is in comparison to STR for which to use as a melee character primary stat, Con need not apply unless you intend to defeat your opponents by living a long healthy life far away from them. A Str or Dex combatant very likely has Con as their secondary stat.

Dex affects initiative, and stealth, and thieves tools, which come up in pretty much every game.

And counting saves while ignoring spells is... misguided..

If you actually look into the SRD Spellbook, You will see that Reflex, Fortitude, and Will are still reigning champs.
12 use STR saves.
48 use DEX saves.
31 use CON,
34 use WIS,
2 use INT (although maze uses an INT CHECK, not save, so maybe 3)
12 use CHA
(Another 21 are attack rolls, which MIGHT be affected by dex, or even con or wis in for barbarians or monks)

Lets look at sample traps while we are at it...
Dex 4
Con 2
Also many magic traps trigger spells, which again usually targets Dex.


So yes, if you intend to run a game in which there is no magic and there are no traps, then by all means, Dex loses a lot of its impressiveness. But, if you do actually intend for those to exist, then at some point you are going to run into 8d6 worth of fireball.

Traps are by no means tied to Dexterity at all. In fact, most of them have attacks instead of saves. And yes, Dexterity affects AC, but so do Strength, as you need certain tresholds covered in order to use heavy armor: the highest basic AC comes, in fact, from strong characters (20 from shield and plate), vs 19 from dextrous characters. You could increase more than that with a feat (half plate and Medium Armor Master), but with an Armor feat you can also increase your durability giving your character DR 3 against BPS damage, which doesn't sound like a lot, but in fact it is when you factor multiple attacks (from one or multiple creatures). I have two characters with HAM feat in my table, and they are basically immortal against waves of enemies.

There are also a LOT of Constitution saves in traps (EG: anything including poison needles). And you can also trigger Strength traps, like falling debris or rolling rocks. And also, jumping is strength-controlled. I cannot count how many times the (10th level) rogue and elf wizard fell to simple pit traps having detected them, just because they couldn't jump over and failed their checks. The paladin and the fighter just jumped over them, not even needing a check (str 20 allows really long jumps).

Even with that covered, as opposite to monsters, the main effort is to avoid traps, not fall for them, so it's better to have a high Perception/Investigation (ruling) than high DEX for traps. That way, you avoid traps altogether. So, no, Dex isn't king over traps also.

That's different to say that Dexterity is useless. It isn't. Is very useful, specially for stealth and rogue's tools. But also Athletics, that govern anything physical (and has combat applications too, like Dexterity, that governs over Initiative).

As for the spells, I know that many are dex saves. I never denied it. Also I didn't count them, as spellcaster monsters are scarce and have extensive spell lists. I'll upload a list of spellcaster monsters when I reach home. And they also don't endure enough to use their spells. I do not lie to you: the last time I've seen a fireball in the hands of a DM was more than 5 years ago (playing AD&D). It is much more common to have spells from the player's side. Casting spells as a monster isn't often the best option, an when it is, it's usually a defensive/controlling spell (like Entangle or Shield). As I've said, this could vary a lot, but it isn't a joke that most of the Dex saves come from creatures above 10th level, when damage is more a nuisance to the players that a real threat. It is true that most monsters use Strength saves than Dex saves, and from them they are much more common (it is more common to use several lesser CR monsters in late levels than using one higher CR monsters at early levels). YMMV.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
[MENTION=6784868]Erechel[/MENTION] Good analysis. I've noticed the dearth of Charisma & Intelligence saves (both among monsters and spells), so I've taken extra care to include more of those saves in my games:

Intelligence saves (DRUID, ROGUE, WIZARD)
analytical skill, info. recall, mental acuity, reasoning
– madness
– psionics, psychic winds, brain eaten
– altering memory
– quickly navigating a maze (e.g. maze)
– failing to read a scroll correctly, incorrectly deducing a command word
– modify memory should be an Intelligence save (instead of Wisdom)

Charisma saves (BARD, CLERIC, PALADIN, SORCERER, WARLOCK)
confidence, eloquence, leadership, sense of self-identity
– Abyssal corruption
– banishment
– forced teleporting/planeshifting
– despair & emotional manipulation
– magical imprisonment
– turning people against you (e.g. antipathy)
– unwilling polymorphing
– possession
– avoid detection while undercover (Hoard of the Dragon Queen)
 

Mephista

Adventurer
Huh. Curious. I never realized how much of dragons was tied to Dex saves. I once did an analysis on monsters that called for Dex versus Str saves, and came up with roughly even numbers. I didn't quite realize just how much of that was slanted towards dragons, however. Thank you for all the effort this must have involved!

I'm kind of curious where the line between Wis and Cha saves is, though. I'm seeing a lot of anti-charm and anti-fear in both. I wonder if they're just throwing CHA out there because its being ignored so much?

----------------

On the matter of Dexterity being a god stat better than Strength? The debate comes up so often, its tired. I'm personally on the side that says the only advantage Dex has over Str is an Initiative bonus, and the best party is one that has a mix of Str and Dex characters in the event you need something strength-y done.
 

discosoc

First Post
You have to remember that the reason Dex saves are considered the most common or important has a lot to do with traps, environmental effects, and quite a few spells. It's pretty hard to go dive into a dungeon and not deal with a few Dex saves, no matter who occupies it.

Secondly, Wis saves are considered very important simply because their effects are often very big deals. It's like, you may not have to make many Wis saves, but when you do, you *really* don't want to fail them.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Ok. It's a common place to say that, in D&D 5th edition, Dexterity is king over Strength, partially due to the fact that the Dexterity is the "most common" Saving Throw. I want to discuss that and see how much truth there is in that statement. I searched through the Monster Manual and made a statistic about the Saving Throws.
Le sigh. This fallacy again.

<rest of rant not directed at anyone in particular>

You're effectively assuming a campaign will have the same distribution as a campaign where each and every monster appears once, and that's just not true.

I acknowledge the temptation, but this really does not end up anywhere near the numbers you need to draw the conclusions you do.

Heck, I could whip up a campaign where Intelligence is, by far, the most resisted stat, and you would not be able to say there was anything wrong with that campaign whatsoever.

There simply is no correlation between the fact that X percent of Monster Manual monsters are good at Int saves, and the fact that Y percent of Joe's campaign's monsters are good at Int saves.

None.

To pull that off, you need to assign each and every monster a weight rating - how common is that monster. For instance, a Goblin is surely a much more commonly encountered monster than an Aboleth. So in a hypothetical two-monster Manual you can't just count Goblin once and Aboleth once and then claim Int saves count for 50% of monsters and Dex saves 50%, so Fireball and Feeblemind are bad spells to bring.

Sure we could then fight over those ratings, but you would at least have something resembling real statistics.
 

Secondly, Wis saves are considered very important simply because their effects are often very big deals. It's like, you may not have to make many Wis saves, but when you do, you *really* don't want to fail them.

This same argument would apply even moreso to Int saves. A failed Wis save might make you frightened (disadvantage on rolls, movement restrictions), or charmed (can't attack) until you take damage--but a failed Int save could leave you a mindless vegetable for the rest of your life, or until someone learns Greater Restoration.

Failed Wisdom saves are more common, but less disastrous, than failed Int saves.
 

discosoc

First Post
This same argument would apply even moreso to Int saves. A failed Wis save might make you frightened (disadvantage on rolls, movement restrictions), or charmed (can't attack) until you take damage--but a failed Int save could leave you a mindless vegetable for the rest of your life, or until someone learns Greater Restoration.

Failed Wisdom saves are more common, but less disastrous, than failed Int saves.

Eh, Feeblemind is an obvious exception, but it's also an 8th level spell. That's not the kind of thing most parties are going to be going up against very often, and when it is encounters, Greater Restoration isn't to hard to have available. The rest of the Int saves generally deal with illusions.

I'd rather have a crap Int save and risk a bad Feeblemind encounter way down the road than a bad Wis save and constantly worry about being dominated or feared or whatever from the very first level.
 

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