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D&D General On simulating things: what, why, and how?

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Heh. I promise not to dive down this rabbit hole. I get what you mean and I will try to keep with the spirit of that.

And, sure, it makes sense that you have Captain America just be strong enough to flip cars. But, therein lies the rub. In D&D, Captain America can't flip cars. Not without magic anyway. And, once you start going down that road, game balance gets really, really hard. Because, now, if we let Captain America be that strong all the time, without the balance of having a writer that's going to control what he does with it, now, we have players who simply pull Batroc's arm off and beat him with it.

Because if you actually go the full sim model of Captain America, and then hand it to the player and tell that player he can do whatever he wants with it, well, guess what? Captain America is now going to look absolutely nothing like Captain America. Simply because players are 1000 times more pragmatic than any superhero will be. Those guys that jump Cap in the elevator in Winter Soldier aren't just beaten up a bit, they're dead. Cap's chucking their corpses out the window from the 15th storey.

So, which is a better way to model Captain America? Give him a power that lets him "Toss a car" once per combat, or grant him the power to toss a car whenever he wants and now he's pulling every bad guy's head off?
That is a real problem, I agree. I still don't want to give someone a "flip a car" power though; those kinds of mechanics just aren't fun for me. I'd rather deal with the balance issues and talk to my players about what kind of game we want to play.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
And issue with how 4e did this and your (reasonable) explanation is that all the powers were independent of each other. So you could be "too tired" to do one physical feat, but simultaneously not too tired to do three others, as long as they all were different. More coherent way to model what you suggest would be to have some sort of "vigour points" you'd use to power various physical "powers." (And if the game would have exhaustion mechanic, this should be tied to that. Classes with "vigour points" would lose those when they take exhaustion before suffering actual exhaustion levels.)
Level Up's exertion points for maneuvers lean in this way. A much better way, for me, to model "martial powers".
 

Oofta

Legend
So several hundred posts and mostly it's devolved into game theory parsing of what the word "simulation" means, that we can't say that D&D has any simulation because a fighter can contribute to a fight against a dragon (the odds of a lone fighter beating a dragon are between slim and none)? Proof that a fighter couldn't kill a dragon is a video of a rampaging elephant that, while an impressive show of elephant strength, shows absolutely no one attacking the elephant?

I don't get too technical about definitions. Simulation just means we're consistently modeling something. I could have a simulation of the two-dimension flat world which would look nothing like reality. D&D is not a particularly good simulation of reality, it takes too many shortcuts and compromises in order to make the game playable and fun. It lacks specific rules for all sorts of things that it could cover because it was decided that it didn't add enough to the game and wasn't particularly relevant. So we don't have levels of blacksmith because it doesn't really matter.

But humans have been hunting and killing (to the point of extinction) megafauna for millennia. People that we would consider commoners in D&D go out to kill grizzly bears armed with nothing more than a spear. Which brings us back to how tough is a dragon. Well, according to the MM, they have an AC 24. They're no more difficult to damage with a weapon than a well equipped human fighter with some help from magic that they're likely to have at 20th level. How much damage can it take before it dies? Well, since it's a completely fictional creature with no real world corollary, we know that as well they have over 500 HP. A dragon bites that commoner? Chomps them in half. Hits a high level fighter? The fighter deflects the majority of damage somehow because of their skill and training. The dragon has better AC than all but the best fighter with magically assisted armor and significantly harder to kill. But it's not an elemental force of natural destruction in D&D.

We get misleading ideas of how difficult it is to kill animals from movies like Jurassic Park. No offense to the movies, I think they're decent popcorn fun, but hitting a T-Rex with several dozen bullets from a rifle at close range would likely kill it and would certainly injure it badly. If elephants were unkillable beasts of destruction, Hannibal would have conquered Rome. Some fictional versions of dragons are far better armored than tanks and virtually impervious to damage. They are not D&D dragons.

So I go back to my original statements. We are not simulating reality across the board. D&D world is a place of magic and toss in a lot of simplifications for ease of gameplay and fun. I assume that people heal magically quickly (even though I use gritty rest rules) and that HP measure exhaustion and stamina as much as anything. AC is over simplified, but you have to have some way of measuring how easy it is to damage an opponent, AC is good enough. People can't jump as far as the Olympic long jump distance according to the rules because those long jump rules are how far you can automatically jump with no effort under all circumstances, not just ideal ones. That, and people in D&D generally aren't effectively naked nor are they spending years to perfect long jumps to the exclusion of everything else.

Is D&D a particularly good simulation? Probably not. To me the only way to say it's not a simulation at all requires having to redefine the word into some game theory construct or narrowly define what you're trying to simulate. Beyond that, the question is what reality do you want to simulate? How close does it have to be to the real world? For me it's action movie reality. I want it to feel like something I could see on a well done action movie or TV show that doesn't go to Superman levels of supernatural. Then throw in some magic for extra flavor and zing.
 

Oofta

Legend
In this particular case - maybe flipping a car is his maximum strength output - that is, his max-out power lift. It isn't something he can sustain for a dozen or more reps. He won't be able to flip a car again until he has a chance to rest and recover.

Th trick it to make it clear that this isn't a combat-only feat of strength, which is a thing I've seen some dms do.

A PC in D&D could flip a car, it would just require some type of giant strength belt. Or a super-soldier serum potion.
 


And the issue with how 4e did this and your (reasonable) explanation is that all the powers were independent of each other. So you could be "too tired" to do one physical feat, but simultaneously not too tired to do three others, as long as they all were different. More coherent way to model what you suggest would be to have some sort of "vigour points" you'd use to power various physical "powers." (And if the game would have exhaustion mechanic, this should be tied to that. Classes with "vigour points" would lose those when they take exhaustion before suffering actual exhaustion levels.)

So this is effectively one way how Forged in the Dark handles this (while using the 4e model as well). However, of note:

* The game is heavily structured. You've got 3 distinct phases which make up a distinct loop. In terms of the actual play, this is no different than having an Adventuring Day (between Long Rests) and scenes (Combat or Skill Challenge). This structure and all of the tightly designed game tech that integrates with it creates the balance for Skilled Play to dictate the results of the play loop.

* So take the two Class Features below. One is straight-up a Blades iteration of 4e while the other is more like you're conceiving above (sub Stress for your Vigour):

Shadow
You may expend your special armor to resist a consequence from detection or security measures, or to push yourself for a feat of athletics or stealth.

When you use this ability, tick the special armor box on your playbook sheet. If you “resist a consequence” of the appropriate type, you avoid it completely. If you use this ability to push yourself, you get one of the benefits (+1d, +1 effect, act despite severe harm) but you don’t take 2 stress. Your special armor is restored at the beginning of downtime.

Ghost Veil
You may shift partially into the ghost field, becoming shadowy and insubstantial for a few moments. Take 2 stress when you shift, plus 1 stress for each extra feature: it lasts for a few minutes rather than moments—you are invisible rather than shadowy—you may float through the air like a ghost.

This ability transforms you into an intangible shadow for a few moments. If you spend additional stress, you can extend the effect for additional benefits, which may improve your position or effect for action rolls, depending on the circumstances, as usual.

You have 1 Special Armor box, so Shadow means you can use this once per play loop (a "Daily" if you will).

You have 9 Stress so technically you could use Ghost Veil multiple times per play loop. But that won't ever happen (nor have I seen the big guns like Ghost Veil pulled out more than one time per play loop - which really means one time per Score because no one is using this during Info Gathering/Free Play) because its so costly and its paramount that you have your Stress "banked" for all the other things you need it for; Pushing, Assisting, taking Stress when you Lead a Group Move, Resisting Consequences.

So, effectively, its borderline just veneer (in terms of Sim immersionist priorities) that it isn't a "Daily." The only thing in the design of Ghost Veil that separates it from Shadow is that Ghost Veil interacts with your Stress (pool) rather than working with your (singular) Special Armor box (which might be shared with other features if your Crew has them or if you have two abilities that use it). What this enables in play is that it allows for a chunky decision-point (when to deploy Ghost Veil, when to hold off, or even if you want to deploy it at all) around Stress (pool) management.

Two different designs, but, effectively, they're both only being used 1/play loop (and really 1/Score). The only difference is in the Skilled Play management that it creates.

I'm assuming that, despite this, you still feel that Ghost Veil is less "jarring" than Shadow, yes?
 

I don't get why people would want to say "you're a mythic hero who's a superhuman badass but you needs to run, jump and carry in amounts that I can observe in the real world". That the characters being played are not mundane and are not limited to real world actions, be it by magic or skill.
Who claimed that?
What sim aspects do I want in my D&D? Well, I want them to be in play insofar as they yield a comprehensible experience for all the participants that is sufficient to play a game. So GMs need to rely upon them to frame scenes and players to functionally navigate their decision-space which affects the gamestate (and the shared imagined space) in a way that is predictable and rewarding.

This isn’t color (like modern D&D encumbrance/Loadout/inventory). It’s individually consequential things that intersect with each other part to make a weighty (in the play), coherent whole.
This makes perfect sense to me.
 

I'm assuming that, despite this, you still feel that Ghost Veil is less "jarring" than Shadow, yes?

Perhaps, though I'm not quite sure what even is being represented here. If it is some sort of magic/scifi tech, then it doesn't necessary need to follow how I would imagine physical extortion working. But ignoring that and assuming we are modelling some sort of physical feats, yes, I find the shared pool less jarring. And sure, if the said pool is so stingy that it effectively is just one use anyway, it doesn't much matter, but I was thinking more of "encounter power" level of things.

Like if you have a character with powers:
1) Hit one foe really hard
2) Hit one foe, then run to another foe and hit them too.
3) Toss a foe at another foe
4) Hit all nearby foes

If these all are independent it is weird. If I am too tired to to do #1 (because I already did it once) why am I not too tired to do #3? I would much prefer a model where you have four power uses (between rests or whatever) and you can use them on these powers any way you want.

And beyond verisimilitude, I think it is just better design too, and easier to balance. If the characters are balanced to use four powers (at that level,) look what happens when our guy faces one tough foe instead of a group of foes. In "one of each" model 3/4 of their power budget is unusable!
In the pool model they can just use power #1 four times on that big monster, which sure, is a bit boring, but definitely way less a "feels bad" situation.
 
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robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
How does this 40 feet lizard fit in a ten foot square? Even if we assume that neck and tail overhang a bit to account for the extra reach it has, this doesn't make sense.
This seems an issue with trying to fit a messy fantasy world into a tidy grid. The problem doesn’t lie with the creatures. The monster manual should describe the from of the creature in squares if the system wants things to make a modicum of sense on a board.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
This seems an issue with trying to fit a messy fantasy world into a tidy grid. The problem doesn’t lie with the creatures. The monster manual should describe the from of the creature in squares if the system wants things to make a modicum of sense on a board.
Agreed. Why does everything need to be "square" anyway? Can't we have a monster which "grid-size" reads 4x2?

Size could be listed as "Huge (4x2)".
 

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