On the Importance of Mortality

[Doug McCrae]

To repeat myself in another thread, I think that the threat of death is valuable for the game, but actual character death usually isn't.

You have a point there. Actual deaths mostly just suck.

 

[The Shaman]

In a game where the PCs are supposedly heroes, unheroic death should never be on the table.

In the games I referee, the adventurers aren't heroes by default - with skill and luck they may become heroes to their peers, but that is by no means assumed or assured.

In this context, there is no such thing as "unheroic death" - there is merely death as one of many consequences of the life the adventurers have chosen to pursue.

 

[shilsen]

Out of curiosity, for people like Mallus that thing death is either more trouble than it is worth or actively ruins the fun of the game, what do you do when play results in character death, whether it is a random criticasl against a PC or a player's decision that results directly in the character's untimely demise?

See this thread I started about messing with the basic assumptions of D&D. That explains what I did to prevent death from actually happening.

 

[Mallus]

And, as your game has PC mortality, it isn't 0.

Yes, the chance for PC death is nonzero, thought the chance for permanent PC death or TPK is zero.

In many sports, for example, atheletes visualize what they want to achieve as part of their training. This visualization has demonstrable, and measureable, results on performance.

OK. But athletes also undergo rigorous training that bears a close resemblance to the actual sport. Show me an athlete that "just visualizes" during training --and thus is analogous to a D&D player-- and I'll show you the agony of defeat.

Certainly D&D can teach you many classic cons -- how to spot and avoid them.

Heh, I'll give you this one, partially. It can teach you the techniques, but not how to stay cool under pressure.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Collection of Statements that Lord Zardoz mostly agrees with in principle.

Most of what you say I agree with, particularly in the impact of strong tactical play by the DM, and in letting the dice fall where they may. However, there are some key distinctions I would make.

First, while player mortality is in general a good thing, I have found that killing a character off will often result in the player rolling up a clone. I have found that character death in the literal sense is something to generally avoid. Character death is not so much the goal, as is Character Defeat. However, the only real distinction is that as wherever plausible within the narrative, you do not equate a total party kill with having to roll out new characters. If you can justify the character survival in the narrative, do so.

The second point I will make is that random character death is generally not a good thing. While you could put a 10d4 Con Poison with a DC 35 Fort save on some food the players purchased due to a random die roll, this will not result in your players giving you a high five for creativity. As long as the players have had adequate warning that their characters are in danger, they are fair game. This can mean in the midst of a dungeon or wilderness environment, or it can mean hitting them with an angry dragon when they decide to seek out a dragon lair to loot. Alternately, if the unexpected peril they are facing is somehow plot related, and they have a reasonable chance of defeating it, by all means knock yourself out.

Eseentially, what I think is a more accurate guideline to achieve the kind of effect you describe is this. For every encounter involving any real peril, there must be real chance of defeat, and a reasonable chance for victory.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Raven Crowking]

Actual deaths mostly just suck.

I tend to think of it as a short-term downer in exchange for long-term gain, myself.

YMMV, of course.

RC

 

[Mallus]

First, while player mortality is in general a good thing, I have found that killing a character off will often result in the player rolling up a clone. I have found that character death in the literal sense is something to generally avoid. Character death is not so much the goal, as is Character Defeat.

It sounds like you agree more w/shilsen and me.

 

[Mallus]

I tend to think of it as a short-term downer in exchange for long-term gain, myself.

That exactly how I feel, except the opposite!

I admit the chance for permanent PC death can increase tension in the short-term. But the cost in the longer-term loss of player engagement/involvement has never been worth it.

 

[Fenes]

Out of curiosity, for people like Mallus that thing death is either more trouble than it is worth or actively ruins the fun of the game, what do you do when play results in character death, whether it is a random criticasl against a PC or a player's decision that results directly in the character's untimely demise?

Player's decision: If the player willingly sacrifices a character, or curts the risk of death (after a clear warning from the DM like "do this, and you die") it's death.

Random chance? Doesn't happen, character is either out cold (-X), or something intervenes, which often has more consequences later on, like a geas.

 

[Fenes]

Not to mention that often, it seems to me that "death is light as a feather, survival heavy as a mountain" when it comes to consequences for the player.

Dead PC? Roll up a new one.

Captured PC? Lost your magic items? Domination-collar? Sold into slavery miles away? Lost your family, standing, honor? Maimed? Now you have to fix it.