On the Importance of Mortality

[Raven Crowking]

Yes, the chance for PC death is nonzero, thought the chance for permanent PC death or TPK is zero.

First off, I'll agree that your games are probably far too DM-fudgy for my tastes upfront.

That said, what if the PCs all jumped into lava together? Is there a TPK? Do the PCs somehow come back to life?

What if my PC is a real dink, and when he dies the other PCs do everything they can to prevent him from being raised, going so far as to disintigrate the body? Does he somehow come back to life?


RC

 

[Mallus]

First off, I'll agree that your games are probably far too DM-fudgy for my tastes upfront.

Neither shil or I fudge; we use Action Points/Swashbuckling Cards. We also design scenarios/opponents in which non-lethal defeats are believable outcomes.

That said, what if the PCs all jumped into lava together?

I'd ask the players why they are wasting my time and theirs.

Is there a TPK? Do the PCs somehow come back to life?

It's never come up. My players are resourceful, death-avoiding mechanisms are built into the game, apparently I'm no slouch when it comes to balancing encounters --you'd be laughing if you knew my game-- and there's been some luck involved. Basically, killing all of them before someone fled magically is almost impossible, and I work to keep things that way.

What if my PC is a real dink, and when he dies the other PCs do everything they can to prevent him from being raised, going so far as to disintigrate the body? Does he somehow come back to life?

My players cooperate with one another (and me), and we all work to make the as good as it can be, so the situation you describe couldn't happen. You might as well have asked "What if I pull down my pants in the middle of the session and urinate on the battle map?"

 

[Raven Crowking]

Neither shil or I fudge; we use Action Points/Swashbuckling Cards. We also design scenarios/opponents in which non-lethal defeats are believable outcomes.

I do the same (though I also design scenarios/opponents in which lethal defeats are believable outcomes), but from the sounds of things, you have a low incidence of PC deaths because of a combination of resourceful players, game mechanics (AP/SC, for example), good encounter design, and luck. I've no problem with any of those things, provided:

(1) The PCs are free to seek out situations where death really is on the line, and sometimes....even if not very often....they end up in those situations without actively seeking them out.

(2) When mechanics, resourcefulness, careful encounter design, and luck fail, the chips still fall where they may.

My players cooperate with one another (and me), and we all work to make the as good as it can be, so the situation you describe couldn't happen. You might as well have asked "What if I pull down my pants in the middle of the session and urinate on the battle map?"

That's happened to you, too?








(kidding)


RC

 

[Brother MacLaren]

(2) When mechanics, resourcefulness, careful encounter design, and luck fail, the chips still fall where they may.

The reason that this is so much fun for me as a player is that it can be turned on the NPCs. To use a phrase from the Moldvay Basic Set, "There's always a chance." If the NPCs' resourcefulness, preparation, and luck fail, the PCs might triumph. Maybe we aren't SUPPOSED TO take on Prince Jagger von Drachenfels for another few levels, but if we decide he is such an evil SOB that we're willing to take our chances now, hey, it might work out. That's freedom, and that's why I like D&D more than CRPGs. And yes, that means that a hobgoblin War1 might get lucky and defeat my Ftr4 if the rolls go against me.

We had that moment in Star Wars (both Jedi nearly dead, then a 20-20-autokill from the scoundrel on a foe we weren't "supposed" to beat head-on). Like in Big Trouble in Little China; Jack Burton is clearly the LEAST competent hero there, and he takes down Lo Pan with a lucky crit. As much as I love it when a plan comes together, there's something fun about winning through dumb luck.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Out of curiosity, for people like Mallus that thing death is either more trouble than it is worth or actively ruins the fun of the game, what do you do when play results in character death, whether it is a random criticasl against a PC or a player's decision that results directly in the character's untimely demise?

1) Stop play effectively for that session.

2) The player needs to be convinced to continue that character's established plot even though raise dead pushes the player towards an optimal replacement.

3) Recalculate the raised character or generate a new one.

4) The party drops everything to go back to town, or otherwise finds whatever reason to (thinly) justify the introduction of the new character.

5) Restart play with no guarantee that the above may happen in the next combat.

In short, grind grind grind in my already hard-to-justify-to-my-wife 4 hour per week game. And when baby comes I'll have even less time. Basically I have no patience for the current editions excessive and disruptive level of lethality.

 

[Mallus]

That's happened to you, too?

Not in a long time...

Maybe we aren't SUPPOSED TO take on Prince Jagger von Drachenfels for another few levels, but if we decide he is such an evil SOB that we're willing to take our chances now, hey, it might work out. That's freedom, and that's why I like D&D more than CRPGs.

You still have the opportunity to do things like that in a death-lite game. The only difference is that the campaign isn't over if the PC's fail.

 

[Raven Crowking]

You still have the opportunity to do things like that in a death-lite game. The only difference is that the campaign isn't over if the PC's fail.

Which means, however you slice it, that the stakes are never as great.

RC

 

[Brother MacLaren]

You still have the opportunity to do things like that in a death-lite game. The only difference is that the campaign isn't over if the PC's fail.

Okay, let's say that due to your house rules, the barbarian stabilizes at -9 instead of dying, the rogue is captured, and the other PCs escape when they realize they're in over their heads. What now? Is the super-genius wizard-prince-general of Glantri going to let his two captives perish in a slowly-moving easily-escapable death-trap? Why wouldn't he just kill them and then re-animate their corpses?

Having game rules to reduce PC death is one thing. Having BBEGs all be morons who haven't read the Evil Overlord's Handbook is quite another. If my PC is trying to kill the BBEG, the least the BBEG can do is show some respect and try to kill my PC.

 

[Mallus]

Which means, however you slice it, that the stakes are never as great.

But the "stakes" are a product of player investment in their characters, not whether the fictional situations they're in are life-and-death. So long as the PC's care about something, the stakes can be high. Conversely, if the players aren't invested, even character death doesn't have much impact, as in a typically meat-grinder campaign. Just role up more fodder.

 

[Mallus]

Is the super-genius wizard-prince-general of Glantri going to let his two captives perish in a slowly-moving easily-escapable death-trap? Why wouldn't he just kill them and then re-animate their corpses?

Oh sure, there are some challenges that are tantamount to suicide, and in those cases I'd inform my players of that fact. I'd say something like "Wouldn't you rather take a nice dip in lava?". Again, we all work together to keep the game playable.

Having BBEGs all be morons who haven't read the Evil Overlord's Handbook is quite another.

I'm good at creating antagonists with believable motivations beyond "Kill them all!". It's not so hard.