On the nature of dungeons in your campaign.

[Shadowslayer]

NOTE: this is hopefully going to be a discussion on the nature of dungeons for people who use them and like them. We know there's a segment of gamers who don't like dungeons, think they're stupid, and don't use them in their games. If this is you, all I ask is to please try and respect the nature of the thread.

So, I've spent a week going through my copy of Dungeonscape, and I've decided I'm glad I bought it. Its just a neat book, and the sections of dungeon and encounter design are first rate IMO.

I notice that in this book, they really lean heavily towards the dungeon as an exotic location, with a heavy nod to the fantastical. Maybe a little too fantastical for some...I don't really know. But having read it, I was wondering about the nature of dungeons in other people's campaigns.

My dungoens have, in the past, normally been of a somewhat mundane origin. (Mundane for D&D, anyway) Either a cave complex, abandoned mine, Dwarven stronghold, haven-for-mankind-during-some-great-cataclysm-that-drove-people-underground-thousands-of-years-ago, or simply an underground portion of a long gone aboveground complex, such as a keep or a temple.

I think I was heavily influenced by the 2e sourcebook "Dungeon and Catacomb Guide" that gave samples of these types of dungeons. In any case, its always been a fairly mundane origin made fantastical by the fact that a millenia of strange monsters, demihumans, cults, and whatnot, have laid claim to the dungeon at various times over the years.

In Dungeonscape, they offer up a couple of ideas for fantastic origins. There's the tried and true cliche of the Mad Wizard's maze. There's also an idea that, in a certain type of campaign, that a sentient evil at the core of the earth creates the underdeeps itself to house its minions of evil...and the closer to the core of the earth you get, the evil-er, and weirder things get. (The book explains it better...these are my words)

Part of what they seem to be doing is trying to create a justification or an explanation for a truly alien dungeon that's actually engaging and entertaining, should you wish to include one in your game. I find the idea intriguing, in that I've always held forth a niotion (again, stemming from that 2e sourcebook) that a dungeon should be somewhat believeable, and now they're saying in effect "well, in the D&D game, you can create a justification for pretty much anything...here's a couple of the more far out ones" Its actually a bit liberating.

My question is: How have YOU explained the existence of dungeons in your game? And have you experimanted with dungeons that have more magical, alien or just really, really strange origins?

 

[Korgoth]

First off, if you haven't seen it yet, check out this excellent thread:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18710

That thread really opened my eyes on several issues. There's a similar one at the Knights and Knaves Alehouse in the 1E "Adventure Notes" forum but I think you have to be registered to look at that one.

One way to approach the dungeon, which argues for your characterization as "exotic", is as a nightmare underworld. If there's a Mad Wizard or an Eldritch Gate or a Terrible Enchantment affecting the place then anything can happen. I do think it is important to have all the contents be explicable... but the players may or may not ever figure out the explanation.

Why? Because a good dungeon is a challenge to the players, not just the characters. Mapping, avoiding traps, setting reasonable objectives and then accomplishing those goals, knowing when to fall back and regroup, anticipating the tricks, etc. are all things that the players have to do.

Consider a classic ploy: the PCs are trying to raid a particular tomb to get the fabled magical trove therein. They get through a bunch of deathtraps, fight a medium-difficulty monster and get a couple more traps in the face. Then they walk away smugly with the cursed and/or fairly worthless magic items. Because they just beat the "False Tomb". The real tomb lies further in, with a concealed and sealed entrance and even more traps and containing the real guardian, along with the true trove. But what die roll can figure out this trick? There isn't one. This is where we find out who the truly ingenious players are. If they were the undead villain, they would have built a false tomb to trick robbers. So they should suspect that, as hard as it was, in the end it was too 'easy', too straightforward.

The dungeon is an alien realm inimical to surfaceworlders. So the party had better bring their "A" game if they want to survive. But a big part of the A-game is thinking rationally. So, as others have pointed out as well, if you have a room with a monster that seems very unlikely, or two monsters in proximity that seem an unlikely pair, there needs to be some rationale for it because you want to get your players into the habit of asking those questions... which means there will need to be satisfactory answers. However, there's nothing to say that those answers have to be evident at the time. For instance, if the dungeon is controlled by a Mad Wizard... the PCs may not know this right away. Rather, his existence may be inferred by the evidently overly-chaotic layout and population of the dungeon itself!

As a separate issue, I think it's good to avoid the trend that has taken over most published dungeons for a long time now: linearity. There are some dungeons that need to be linear, like the Tomb of Horrors. But a dungeon that represents a nightmare underworld of a different kind... one that forms a sort of "anti-surface" and has more than one purpose (the Tomb had but one purpose, to house the remains of the Demilich and those who would rob him) should not be linear. It should have multiple entrances and exits, multiple and varied accesses between levels, and should contain many corridors and chambers that facilitate a real choice of movement among the various areas. There should be multiple ways to the same destination, and entirely different areas with different 'flavors'. Does the party want to explore the Upper Oubliette, or do they hanker after the grave goods to be found in the Wailing Crypts to be found (and you can't miss them!) on the next level down. & etc.

 

[the Jester]

My campaign's history stretches back about a million years. Thus, many dungeons are simply old bits of civilization buried by the dust of the ages. There are even complete underground cities waiting to be found. There are, of course, abandoned mines, subterranean citadels, sets of delver or denzelian tunnels, natural cave complexes, areas dug out by underground dwelling civilizations, etc. There are even living dungeon areas, where the earth itself has pushed apart to accommodate obscure elemental needs.

Basically, dungeons have more than one origin in my game, depending on the need.

 

[Shadowslayer]

Heh...thanks for the link Korgoth. I gotta head out now, but that thread looks like a nice evening's read. I shall get to it tonight.

And thank you for your ideas. Nightmare realm....I'm digging it.

 

[S'mon]

I think the D&D dungeon is fundamentally the Joseph Campbell 'Hero With a Thousand Faces' Jungian 'Underworld', the place to which the Hero is Called, into which he ventures, to return with knowledge & power. This psychological element of the Dungeon as alien, as the Other, is I think a powerful element of its appeal. I agree that the search for 'realism' has tended to mundanify the dungeon, and this can be detrimental to the thrill of the game, of entering something that is almost a literal manifestation of the id.

 

[S'mon]

Actually, writing the above has just made me realise why I had such a visceral negative reaction to Monte Cook's 3e DMG advice that warned against having mudane, 'non magical' towns in the campaign world, because that would be 'unrealistic'. I really think he missed the point. A big part of the Dungeon's psychological appeal is that you leave behind the mundane, exemplified by the home village or town, to go adventuring in the magical and bizarre - the dungeon. Yes, logically, for a D&D world to be stable the city with its concentration of population would also be the centre for all sorts of power, including magic. But if you think D&D is a game about logic, well, you probably write rather boring RPG supplements.

Edit: Of course the magical/bizarre adventure site doesn't need to be a dungeon, nor the mundane home base a town; you could conceivably have a Dwarf campaign where the two were reversed! In my Wilderlands PBEM the party are travelling from the relatively mundane, peaceful island of Croy to the exotic, dangerous, magical, locale of adventure - not a dungeon, but the City State of the Invincible Overlord itself.

 

[DragonLancer]

I've never put a too much thought into dungeons along the lines of where did they come from. Sure, I've used them as the foundations of a ruined structure, or constructed deathtrap maze...et al, but to me dungeons are simply subterranean structures. Whether they are remanants from an elder civilisation or a constructed fortress or home, they just are.

 

[Thunderfoot]

When I first started DMing, I used to draw dungeons of epic proportions, no reasons, just scrawls of tunnels and rooms filled with monsters and treasures. That was fun when I was younger, but as I and the folks I played with got older, one question kept popping up, why is this thing here?

During my "sophmore" years as a DM, I concentrated more on the outdoor adentures with dungeons playing a smaller role. It gave the players freedom to move around and let them decide the course for adventure, it was great for them... and a headaches for me. I would always try to guess every eventuality and come to the table with notebooks full (and I'm not exagerating) of monsters, treasures and outcomes to practicaly any path they might take.

Then I got a book that sort of turned my life around on dungeon design; the 2ED&D "Dungeon Builder's Guidebook". It explained things like continuity, ecology and what not, as well as fantastic locales. I began writing dungeons again. When 3E came around, there were a set of articles on several websites about Dungeoncraft, more good information. So when I started my most recent campaign, the entire first half was devoted to a large tunnel complex that was originally an old dwarven stronghold. The party I'm running (with the aid of another) took three years and some change to finally get through it and there are still sections they haven't explored.

I can't wait to get a copy of Dungeonscape, I've perused its pages in the bookstore and can't wait until I get my taxreturn (come on IRS , don;t let me down). From what I've seen, it carries on a great tradition of creating really cool holes in the ground that has been the basis of this hobby for decades. My advice for new dungeon builders is make sure everything fits and have a plausible explination. One area that seems to get away from new dungeon builder is trap making. There was a Netbook of traps that had hundreds of hude, expensive traps that frankly, were just plain stupid. Rooms made of gold (who funded that), the 'eternal slide' (slides miles in length), and other such nonsence. Traps are meant to be deadly (as in kill someone), devestating to morale (that injure and maim not kill), or confound (confuse and seperate the party in order to make them easier to kill). Puzzels are not traps, but traps can contain puzzels. Monsters need food, a thousand year old tomb that contains guardian monsters that are not undead, will just be a thousand year old tomb full of old monster bones.

I'm not perfect, and there are DM who run games much better than I, but as far as detail in design, I must say there are things that even the best blow it on. If at any time a player can ask why and you don;t have a plausible answer, you have just blown the suspension of disbelief and lost that player for at least that session if not longer. DMs have a responsibility to make it fun, which means more work for us. It should be an honor, not a chore. If you approach it with these few tips in mind, it can be most rewarding when the players have that 'Oh Crap!' moment. They will remeber it fondly in years to come and so will you.

 

[Korgoth]

Heh...thanks for the link Korgoth. I gotta head out now, but that thread looks like a nice evening's read. I shall get to it tonight.

And thank you for your ideas. Nightmare realm....I'm digging it.

Sure thing! I think you'll find that thread very worthwhile.

Actually, writing the above has just made me realise why I had such a visceral negative reaction to Monte Cook's 3e DMG advice that warned against having mudane, 'non magical' towns in the campaign world, because that would be 'unrealistic'. I really think he missed the point. A big part of the Dungeon's psychological appeal is that you leave behind the mundane, exemplified by the home village or town, to go adventuring in the magical and bizarre - the dungeon. Yes, logically, for a D&D world to be stable the city with its concentration of population would also be the centre for all sorts of power, including magic. But if you think D&D is a game about logic, well, you probably write rather boring RPG supplements.

I'm right there with you, mate. The Town is where things are "normal". Things happen that we expect to happen, and people are (for the most part) the way they expect them to be. Sometimes there's an evil cultist or man-monster (such as a Were-x) in the town... but that's extra disturbing because it represents an incursion. The Town is mostly safe and knowable and known. We rest there, conduct commerce, eat hot meals and quaff flagons of mead.

The Wilderness, the Outside, is where things start to get dangerous. The unexpected and dangerous is present in the Wilderness. Man has not fully tamed, fully civilized this realm. In the Town we have the rule of Law, but the Wilderness is still tainted by Chaos. Things Out There still creep about in the darkness of night and prey on men.

The Underworld is the most frightening of all, for it is a realm of eternal night. It is to Chaos what the Town is to Law. The Underworld is a place wherein forces entirely inimical to man not only dwell but hold sway. When man leaves the surface world and enters the Underworld he has crossed behind enemy lines. He will need luck, skill and most of all wits to survive.

As you pointed out, in the Underworld man's worst fears exist in corporeal form. It is the test of his manhood and even the essence of man itself to overcome them. The Town is mundane by contrast because it is the realm of safety and intelligibility, rather than danger and magic. The successful Adventurer crosses the threshold and returns, carrying the externalizations of the Underworld (magical treasure) and the internalizations (increased personal power and confidence) with him.

 

[MaxKaladin]

I don't generally use dungeons all that much, but when I do it's typically old tombs, secret hidouts for cultists and things like that.

I did have a dungeon idea I rather liked a few years ago. I was creating a section of my homebrew world when I came up with a backstory about orcs. There was a region set next to a massive mountain range that was full of hills, valleys, rough terrain of all descriptions -- and caves. In the past, the region was infested with orcs who were divided into countless warring tribes. Now, orcs like to live underground and the constant warfare between the tribes meant they needed security, so they took the cave networks and built elaborate hidden strongholds out of them, often expanding the caves as needed. That gave me dungeons of orcish origin. That's fairly standard, I suppose.

Another feature of these tribes was that they liked to raid the lowlanders for treasure, goods and slaves. Occasionally, some particularly charismatic leader would arise and unite the tribes in great raids that would sack cities and drag untold riches back to their mountainous homes. The great civilizations of the lowlands didn't like this, of course, and would occasionally send armies to root out the orcs "once and for all" but it never worked. The orcs just destroyed any force they were stronger than and retreated into their cave networks and waited them out any force they were weaker than. The armies would hurt the orcs, but never managed to wipe them out. That gave me abandoned and sacked dungeons for things to move into -- the strongholds of tribes the lowland armies managed to wipe out and which other orcs didn't occupy for whatever reason.

Eventually, the leader of one large empire hit upon a new and different -- and some would say terrible and evil -- way of destroying the orcs. He consulted his wizards and fell priests and had them create a horrible wasting disease would kill only orcs. That was what finally broke the orcs. I never worked out all the details, but it spread like wildfire among the orcs and they died in massive numbers. Many tribes reacted by sealing themselves into their strongholds. They knew they were vulnerable while so many of them were sick or dead and basically "went to ground" to wait out the plague. Whole tribes died sealed in their strongholds. The orcs never recovered from this and the days of their constant raiding into the lowlands were mostly over. They could certainly never muster their massive hordes again.

Eventually, the area got settled somewhat by humans. It's still a rough frontier that's only sparsely settled. One of the main features of the area is a constant stream of adventurers who flood into the area to scour the hills and valleys for these hidden orcish fortresses. If they can find one that hasn't been looted, it could contain the treasure of centuries of raids into the prosperous lowlands and make the finders rich beyond their wildest dreams. Of course, it's fraught with danger because intact strongholds are filled with traps designed to kill or maim intruders and are often occupied by either the undead remains of the orcs who died there or other monsters who have found their way in.

The last part is the bit I like. You've basically got these dungeons that can be stuffed with gold with a built-in reason for them being there and unlooted yet guarded (by undead and traps, at least). You have people knowing these things are out there, but not exactly where. That explains why you have dungeons that haven't been looted by someone else before -- nobody knew about it. It's easy enough to let the players stumble across one or the clues that will lead them to one somewhere. With the orcs having brought back all sorts of loot from the lowlands, it's easy enough to include various odd bits and just explain it as some odd thing the orcs brought back from the lowlands after some raid or another. It just seems like a great setup for the classic D&D dungeon crawl.

Of course, my players don't really like dungeon crawls so I've never used it.