On the nature of dungeons in your campaign.

[S'mon]

As you pointed out, in the Underworld man's worst fears exist in corporeal form. It is the test of his manhood and even the essence of man itself to overcome them. The Town is mundane by contrast because it is the realm of safety and intelligibility, rather than danger and magic. The successful Adventurer crosses the threshold and returns, carrying the externalizations of the Underworld (magical treasure) and the internalizations (increased personal power and confidence) with him.

Ah, Korgoth, a barbarian after my own heart.

This thread is really helping me remember why dungeons, and the D&D game as it is meant to be played, is so unutterably cool (or 'functional', as they'd say at The Forge).
Fundamentally, it works. It appeals to our deepest hopes, desires and fears. It is a paradigm of adventure that can be ever changing, yet still the same. Lack inspiration? Just roll those d%s and you're good to go...

 

[S'mon]

MaxKaladin, I like your idea a lot. My only worry would be that it's very easy to present orcs as mundane and boring. If you can avoid that, and instill Tolkienesque orc-fear in your players, that'd work very well. If not, maybe a different more exotic race, or even a 'new' race; even if they're really just renamed orcs, calling them the Ancient Yrkhach Hordes of the Damned Realm or similar might garner more respect.

 

[Jacob the Impaler]

I usually slack off when it comes to dungeons because my players are more than happy if I throw together a couple of rooms filled with monster and loot and maybe a simple trap.

My best dungeon was a hideout for a band of evil adventurers that were routed out twenty years before. Of course, the destruction wasn't as thorough as they hoped and a band of ghouls, a tribe of goblins and a young black dragon all found their way back in. The group actually had to negotiate and backstab goblins and ghouls instead of slaughtering them. Good times...

 

[T. Foster]

Very good stuff in this thread, especially from S'mon and Korgoth, including this passage that I like so much, and agree with so thoroughly, that I'm going to quote it in full:

I'm right there with you, mate. The Town is where things are "normal". Things happen that we expect to happen, and people are (for the most part) the way they expect them to be. Sometimes there's an evil cultist or man-monster (such as a Were-x) in the town... but that's extra disturbing because it represents an incursion. The Town is mostly safe and knowable and known. We rest there, conduct commerce, eat hot meals and quaff flagons of mead.

The Wilderness, the Outside, is where things start to get dangerous. The unexpected and dangerous is present in the Wilderness. Man has not fully tamed, fully civilized this realm. In the Town we have the rule of Law, but the Wilderness is still tainted by Chaos. Things Out There still creep about in the darkness of night and prey on men.

The Underworld is the most frightening of all, for it is a realm of eternal night. It is to Chaos what the Town is to Law. The Underworld is a place wherein forces entirely inimical to man not only dwell but hold sway. When man leaves the surface world and enters the Underworld he has crossed behind enemy lines. He will need luck, skill and most of all wits to survive.

As you pointed out, in the Underworld man's worst fears exist in corporeal form. It is the test of his manhood and even the essence of man itself to overcome them. The Town is mundane by contrast because it is the realm of safety and intelligibility, rather than danger and magic. The successful Adventurer crosses the threshold and returns, carrying the externalizations of the Underworld (magical treasure) and the internalizations (increased personal power and confidence) with him.

A big point about dungeon-design that I think has been lost on a lot of people in the past 20+ years is that they've gotten the cause-effect relationship backwards -- they're starting with the cause, the backstory -- who built this dungeon and why, who's living here now and why -- and derived the effects from that (this is a dwarf-built dungeon so it'll have low ceilings, lots of mine-areas, more ramps and elevators than stairs, treasures will tend towards gold, gems, and fighter and cleric-appropriate magic items, etc.) rather than starting with the desired effect (how do I want my players to feel and react to this dungeon? what purpose do I want this dungeon to serve for game-play?) and working backwards to establish a cause that is compatible with that effect. People often complain about the plausibility of gigantic multi-level underground mazes filled with elaborate traps and inhabited by a menagerie of different types of monsters, and my response is "then create a backstory that makes all of it plausible." The 'Mad Wizard' rationale is the most common and best-known (because it was the original one used by Gygax, and was assumed in the original rules) but it needn't be the only one -- otherworld incursions, relics of a prior epoch, 'proving grounds' for an evil being, etc. can all be viable explanations, just so long as they support the desired end-result -- a place where parties of bold adventurers can explore, deal with hazards (tricks, traps, monsters) and find treasure.

It's interesting to me to hear that WotC might be encouraging this same approach and perhaps helping to restore the idea of the 'campaign-dungeon' to the priviliged position it once held and was so rudely thrust out of in the 80s and 90s. Such a move can only be a positive development in my book (I haven't been advocating this style on D&D messageboards for the past 3 or 4 years for nothing). I may just have to stop by the FLGS and check this book out...

 

[EricNoah]

Most of my dungeons hint at prior civilizations, power groups that are now just a memory, glory days long gone, races no longer dominant or even present, magical power that dwarfs what is known in the present. The best dungeons are not only interesting environments and present non-combat challenges, but are also mysteries unto themselves.

 

[Shadowslayer]

MaxKaladin, good stuff. I might have to yoink your idea.

There's some good thoughts here.

To T. Foster, yes, the book is worth it IMO. The first third that's intended for players can be a little goofy, but the DM stuff is excellent. I wouldn't go so far to say that it "advocates" the big campaign dungeon. It simply advocates dungeons in general, and gives a couple ideas for some really weird ones. Though there is some info good for explaining the mega-dungeon as well.

One thing I found interesting is the encounter building part. It actually suggests that when you draw up an encounter, you actually draw the room last. You start with a focus opponent that fills one of about 6 or 7 different roles. ie: brute, blocker, freezer, and my favorite, the hoser. (I pictured a troll wearing a tuque going "uh...how's it goin, eh?")

So you pick your focus creature, then imagine how an average party would deal with it (an average party, not YOUR party...that'd be cheating) You then pick a couple ways to defend the focus, then draw the room around it last, because you'd assume that the focus opponent would pick a spot most advantageous to it.

So what this book really advocates is making encounters first. Then you put them together in interesting ways, then you explain them. Rather than the old method of drawing out a big huge map first and then filling it with monsters and traps. (the traditional way most of us have been doing it)

This change in design focus, while interesting, can be good AND bad. I have to say I just picked up Barrow of the Forgotten King and have never seen such a scattershot group of opponents in a module, ever. So, "tactical first" can lend itself to that too...so watch your step. IMO, you still have to have SOME rationale. I couldn't run a dungeon without at least considering its origins. Not for me anyway.

An aside...to those of you who've read the reviews on Barrow and said to themselves "well, there's no way it can be THAT linear." : Yes, it can.

Anyway, some nifty ideas here. I've got a big dungeon a-brewing in my brain now.

Great discussion!

 

[Korgoth]

Also on Dragonsfoot there's a companion thread on stocking your Megadungeon:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20375

One suggestion therein, which I think is quite good, is to come up with a list of denizens (partly by choice and partly by random determination... but it would work equally as well if it was all by choice) and look over what you've got. Then you can start to determine what sorts of interactions, if any, the given denizens will have.

Example:
On level 1 I don't have any particular notions for baddies, so I make some rolls. I get an NPC party which I toss out because I don't want that in this dungeon or level... all I know is that this dungeon was under an old wizard's keep and contained his menagerie. I get Skeletons several times, Goblins several times, Kobolds once, some random lizards, beetles, snakes, etc. So I decide that some Goblins have set up a camp/outpost/whatever (I can decide later) in part of the level. The Kobolds are just a few, so they're grudging servants/slaves of the Goblins, and don't want to even be in this place. With all of these skeletons, it's obvious that I've got some crypts on this level as well, and these are the products of the wizard's necromantic experiments (maybe he took over the keep from someone else, and used their family catacombs as raw material). This area will be avoided by other creatures. The 2 giant lizards came up from the lower levels (menagerie) so they'll be near areas where such egress is possible. The beetles and snakes came in from outside, so they'll be near the alternate entrance/exits. Voila! It all makes sense, but was mostly random (I just ignored any rolls that indicated human encounters).

 

[Thunderfoot]

One suggestion therein, which I think is quite good, is to come up with a list of denizens (partly by choice and partly by random determination... but it would work equally as well if it was all by choice) and look over what you've got. Then you can start to determine what sorts of interactions, if any, the given denizens will have.

Good point, it goes back to the ecology I mentioned earlier. And whether you start with it or come up with it after the fact is machs nix (doesn't matter). As an example, I have an encounter coming up that once I wrote it our and started adding in treasure just kind of screamed cause and effect. My point earlier was that without this kind of cohesivness (regardless of what it is based on) eventually players just kind of look at you funny.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Most of my dungeons hint at prior civilizations, power groups that are now just a memory, glory days long gone, races no longer dominant or even present, magical power that dwarfs what is known in the present. The best dungeons are not only interesting environments and present non-combat challenges, but are also mysteries unto themselves.

That's what I'm striving for. It's only a year after the adventure that starts off my Story Hour that any of the adventurers are starting to get more information on the builders of that first dungeon and, frankly, since they're trying to escape from these new ruins as fast as they can, it's likely they'll only get more hints, instead of getting the big info-dump that potentially awaits them.

Honestly, it's better that way, IMO. If egyptologists still don't know everything about ancient Egypt after all this time, a group of adventurers should regularly be baffled by the ruins they explore and the artifacts they bring up. (And ancient guardians they battle.)

 

[Lorgrom]

In my latest DnD campaign, the dungeons of the world were created by the gods as a testing/training grounds. A whole series of mini-dimensions were hidden in the deep ether. There a group of over-dieties planted various life forms. All as a way to breed combatents to fight against invading armies from the Far Realm. As the characters grew in levels (and status in the worlds "Adventures Guid"), the dungeons they were assinged to investigate got progressivly wierder and wierder (one 20' x 20' chamber had 20 Dire Lions inside, all the Lions could occupy the space due to the changes in how dimensions worked in that dungeon). Now the characters have finaly been told by one of the PCs dieties what was going on. They have been transported to a prime material plane, near the Far Realm. When we start playing it again, they will be having to fight off a small group of Far Realm invaders.

In another campaign I ran. There was a PrC whice explained how dungeons were creaed and why someone would create them (well besides the old abandoned dwarven city etc route).