[On topic - NO FLAMES!] God & Satan

Avatar said:
well in a Christian world, God is definately more powerful than Satan, because Satan is merely a fallen angel, whom God created. Although it's interesting to note that Lucifer got a thrd of the heavenly host to rise with him, and still God didn't just erase them from existence. So perhaps they are more evenly matched than is immediately apparent.
Though it's interesting to think that since God often refers to Himself as "Father" that perhaps rather than creations/tools to be destroyed on a whim, God thinks of Satan/Lucifer and the third of the hosts as children, and is in no particular hurry to destroy them, merely to reign them in.

The Incarnations Series was an interesting spin - I liked it a lot when I first read it, but the farther I get from them, the less satisfying they become. But then, most Piers Anthony stuff is like that for me.

--The Sigil
 

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One idea would be to not just have God and Satan grant spells, but the Saints and demons as well.

(Um, a Catholic upbringing should give me more than just one, but... sigh)

Archangel Michael: (woohoo, my Confirmation Saint) Patron Saint of War and righteous battle. So give him War and either Destruction or Strength. And Good and Law.

Jude: Patron Saint of Lost Causes. Give him Luck and Protection.

Andrew: Patron Saint of Fishermen. Travel, Water.

Barbara: Patron Saint of Gunners, Miners, Geologists, Protection from Lightning (I kid you not). I'd say Earth and Air.

Francis of Assisi(sp): Patron Saint of Animals. Etc.

The angels are the safe bets, and should be more powerful than the mortal saints -- and some of the mortals probably come after the time period you're thinking. Demons can cover the usual Death and Evil stuff.

Frankly, I don't consider it blasphemous or evil or anything. If praying to the saints gave me the actual ability to cure the sick or smite the evil, I'd be pretty jazzed. As it is, all I get is the occasional parking space and no major trauma in my life so far. :)

-Tacky
 

takyris said:
Frankly, I don't consider it blasphemous or evil or anything. If praying to the saints gave me the actual ability to cure the sick or smite the evil, I'd be pretty jazzed. As it is, all I get is the occasional parking space and no major trauma in my life so far. :)
"Hail Mary, full of Grace, help me find a parking place?" ;)

Add: Angel Gabriel - don't have a Catholic upbringing so can't speak to his "ideal domains" as mentioned above for a Catholic pantheon of saints --- but given that he was the anunciator of Christ's birth, I'd guess domains appropriate to news, heraldry, information (Knowledge) and such would be appropriate.

--The Sigil
 

God thinks of Satan/Lucifer and the third of the hosts as children

And that they might get together from time to time to discuss matters, like in the Book of Job:

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth..." etc.

I'm not sure what this says about relative power levels, but the antagonists seem comfortable in the presence of each other. Of course, it might be that the Book of Revelation grants Satan the same sort of prophetic safety net that allowed the Nazgul King to believe that the phrase, "You will not be slain by the hand of man" granted him invulnerability in battle. ;-)
 

Much of literature (for some reason the only example that springs immediately to mind is Good Omens by Neil Gaimen and Terry Prachett) posits that God is entirely hands off, never making an appearance never directly intervening, possibly never giving spells. It's his angels that do everything. As such the forces of good and evil (with the most powerful player sitting on the sideline) are evenly matched.
 
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*BUMP*

Cool topic. And I am amazed it hasn't devolved into flaming yet...

BTW, I would place Archangel Michael as a Solar at maximum HD, WITH 20 levels of Paladin added.

Satan, maybe, Solar w/max HD WITH 20 levels of Rogue (Father of Lies and all that, you know...).

Also, to offer my theological views, I would say that the reason God didn't destroy Satan when he rebelled was because God is forgiving. Plus, Satan has a place in God's Plan, even if he doesn't know it. I see Satan's place in the Plan as being to tempt humanity, to test mankind.
 

EOL said:
Much of literature (for some reason the only example that springs immediately to mind is Good Omens by Neil Gaimen and Terry Prachett) posits that God is entirely hands off, never making an appearance never directly intervening, possibly never giving spells. It's his angels that do everything. As such the forces of good and evil (with the most powerful player sitting on the sideline) are evenly matched.

Good point. Most sources I've seen say that God communicates with man via angels, the seraphim (sp?) specifically.
 

book of Job

To quote the NIV version of the Bible
Job 1:12
"The Lord said unto Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.' Then satan went out from the presence of the Lord."

This to me would show the Satan is only allowed to do what God wants him to do. and can not be anywhere near the same power level.
 

Christianity is a monotheistic religion, even if that sometimes makes the Christians uncomfortable.

Not only is it a monotheistic religion, but it posits that God is allpowerful.

For God you need to set his divine rank at say 30 or something, essentially high enough, that for all practical purposes it is all powerful. God has access to all domains, which means essentially that he can cast any spell at will. However, God does not exercise his right over certain of those domains. He considers them beneath his Holy self, and he does not grant spells from those domains and only rarely uses them (to destroy something he considers abominable), and in fact gets somewhat miffed when people ask for them as if they had a right to be offended about what someone else had done considering the sorts of things they themselves had done.

God occassionally seems to act through agents who manifest a certain level of divine power, but noone but God grants spells, so no one but has Divine rank 1 or higher. However, just because no one else has divine ranks doesn't mean that some of the other actors involved in the story aren't sufficiently powerful that humans wouldn't get confused over such a fine detail. It is quite reasonable to assume for instance that Satan has 60 or 80 or 100 (effective) character levels, and therefore Epic enough that the distinction between him and 'a god' may seem overly fine to the non-theologically minded.

It should be noted that god doesn't grant _spells_, only miracles. Christian clerics don't recieve spells. As a consequence they have much less control over what happens (spells never get used for purposes God isn't interested in, ei the DM always fiats any spell use he believes inappropriate), but on the other hand they don't have to select spells and can expect whatever miracles that thier level of faith allows. It should be noted that attempts to cast an inappropriate spell not only fail, but still use up the spell for the day (since they generally try the faith of the cleric).

As for Domains, clerics of God (under whatever name), have free access to any of the following domains: Good, Protection, Healing, Sun, Knowledge, Creation, Nobility, Renewal, Family, and so forth.

As well, they may take up to one of the following restricted domains (which God considers to be somewhat though not entirely missing the point): War, Strength, Law, Chaos, Animal, Plant, Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Storm, Luck, and so forth.

Domains like Destruction, Death, and so forth God reserves to himself since he doubts anyone else has the wisdom to use them properly anyway. The Evil domain God has no real reason or desire to indulge in. It is these reserved domains that the enemies of God seem most interested in.

I would assume that all the named spiritual beings who are not God have Divine Rank 0. These beings grant spells by direct petition, which is to say, they cast the spells not the enactor (which actually is true of god as well) when they notice someone asking them to interveen. It particularly amuses the evil enactors to make the 'spell caster' think that the power derives from themselves or that somehow they have forced the enactor to act this way. Still, from a cleric of Satan's (who may or may not believe that he is a cleric of Satan) perspective, that's just exactly what's happening, so from a (N)PC's perspective the usual D&D mechanic works just fine. However, the higher level the spell in question, the more likely it is that Satan is far too busy to spend his limited power granting it. Satan has the broadest access to spells of the domains of trickery and evil, and you may assume his clerics have these domains.

Interestingly, Christianity has never claimed that 'arcane' magic is impossible, and there is even a hint that it is specifically forbid because it is possible - and horribly dangerous. Also, God considers it missing the point, because its about the acquisition of personal power and any personal power other than his own looks pretty cheap to him.

It would not be a bad idea at all to visit the Middle Earth D20 site and read the comments there regarding magic use, since they would apply equally well to a fantastic magic Earth.

Last point, I don't really recommend you running a campaign centered around God and Satan. It seems to me, if you'll pardon the preaching, just a little more dangerous than Thor, Zeus, Baccob, and the like. It also potentially cuts too close to home for some people, especially people who enjoy being offended.
 

I think making the assumption that dieties grant spells in a "christian" style campaign is an inappropriate model.

I don't mean inappropriate as in blasphemy. I mean inappropriate as in you are sticking to an old model of doing things that doesn't fit what you are trying to accomplish.

Don't be a stick in the mud. (I actually just waived my finger at the screen...oh crap).

Anyway, my point. IMC I model a psuedo-monthiestic religious world where all the littel mortals really don't know the truth AND they don't speak to the "gods" so they can't ask.

So they are operating under what is reffered to in our real world as Doghma (yes, the movie was a great example of how literary license and the concept of doghma can make everyone look like and ass).

Let me include a quick note from me player's guide:

"The religions of StormWorld are a reflection of mortal interpretation of divine will rather than a direct representation of that will. Therefore, there are many religions all professing to have the answer and serving the “true god”. Some point to displays of divine magic or miracles while others point to historical scripture of this or that prophet.

What this means in StormWorld, as is obviously the case in the real world, there is a fundamental disconnection between Religious Dogma and Divine Reality (as eloquently put by Faustus of Earth1066tm).

"Religious Dogma"- “What the mortal races believe about the deities that they worship. This is the story that the deity tells to his priests and his prophets, that the Priests and Prophets further embellish and put into scriptures, and that is refined, changed, and interpreted over the millennia by religious leaders and scholars. “

”Religious Dogma is fictional, allegorical, or metaphorical. It is almost never factual in its presentation of spiritual details. When Dogma is correct, it is usually by accident. Religious Dogma is what the church and the people believe.”

This represents the disconnect between the mortal and divine mind. Mortals simply cannot comprehend concepts on the divine level and trying to extrapolate divine concepts into mortal definitions is what gives rise to Religious Dogma and conflict.

"Divine Reality"- The "true" story behind the myths about how the Cosmos was actually created, how the deities came to create sentient races, and what the relationships among the Gods are like. Divine Reality is what the churches and the people are not aware of. "

So how do we deal with all this "divine" magic flying around? Simple, it is created by man...or elf, or dwarf or what have you.

In essence, Divine magic works the same way arcane magic does it just uses a different catalyst. For mages its snakes and snails and puppy dog tails. For sorcerer's, mom slept with a dragon. For clerics, Doghmatic law or simply belief!!

Clerics in my campaign world are granted the ability to cast spells becasue of their religious orders or beliefs. Priests are annointed by Cardinals, Warlocks are granted favor by infernal forces and shaman are blessed by their ancestors. Its doesn't really matter. They are all just catalysts.

This model creates some interesting possibilities. What happens to the cleric that gets ex-communicated?? How about the Shaman that all of a sudden discovers a different religion??

In a crusades era campaign ALL priests (Christian, Muslim, Jewish) would have the ability to cast spells because the elders of thier respective orders have annointed them and revealed to them the mysteries of the universe. Well at least THIER mysteries.

As far as domains go I would do away with them and just adjust the clerics spell list and casting table accordingly.

BUt if you wanted to keep them I would give a christian cleric 4 domains to choose from- good, protection, community, healing. Make all the other ones available as prestige classes. maybe dedicated to various saints.

Just a thought.
 

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