[On topic - NO FLAMES!] God & Satan

[takyris]

"Hail Mary, full of Grace, help me find a parking place?"

Hey, it works a surprising and scary amount of the time. My friends say that I have miracle points, and I'm blowing it on parking spaces, but I say that I'm just making sure Michael remembers me. Keeping the relationship fresh and all.

I don't abuse it, only pull it out when it's important -- "Hey, Michael, I know I could have left earlier, but the fact is, now I'm late, and it would really be cool if... sweet! Thanks!"

-Tacky

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

Just curious, can Jewish clerics get spells? What about Islamic "clerics" (granted there aren't actually any priests, so I guess this would just be really zealous worshippers)?

Yes, most likely. I didn't bring it up because I wouldn't know whether to make Allah a seperate deity, or one and the same as Yahweh/God (differences between Christianity and Islam [AFAIK] being mainly dogmatic).

As for Judaism, I'm thinkin up a nifty kind of system involving Kabbalah and Qlipoth. Judaism is very DnD - after all, the whole concept of a golem is Jewish.

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

Oh, BTW, I too am impressed that this hasn't devolved into a flame-fest (no pun intended in a thread about Satan). Good work, guys.

I like the suggestion put forward about making Satan a nigh-maximized Solar, but have to dispute the bit about not granting spells. After all, demon princes grant spells (in normal DnD), and they're not true deities.

 

[Glyfair]

Last point, I don't really recommend you running a campaign centered around God and Satan. It seems to me, if you'll pardon the preaching, just a little more dangerous than Thor, Zeus, Baccob, and the like. It also potentially cuts too close to home for some people, especially people who enjoy being offended.

This is a matter of the DM knowing the players. Personally, if I was going to run such a campaign, it would not be obviously a specific Christian campaign, but one step removed. Look at the Deryni series. It is obviously a Christian oriented religious view. An important scene even refers to the symbolism of Jesus on the cross. However, beyond that it tends to refer to the Church rather than the religion in specifics.

Personally, if I was running such a campaign I would have the standard D&D Deity statblock for the various religions. They would be closer to the D&D clerics who follow an ethos rather than an actual deity. Basically an cleric could choose domains based on their alignment, other than that no limitations except by character concept. I might have specific domains for those who follow certain Saints or Demons. I also might have certain "Orders" who forbid or require certain domains.

One thing I would absolutely stay away from is any kind of personification of God and Satan. Saying that Satan is a fully advanced Solar tends to imply that you are thinking of having him appear in your game. This is treading dangerous ground. It's better to keep them in the background and just deal with their agents (Demons & Angels and the like are safer territory). Tweak the higher level cleric spells that deal with summoning and such so they don't exist, or only work on the "agents." Gate is an obvious one to watch.

Then again, only you know your players. If you think you know how they will react, then go for it. As long as your are all comfortable with it, then it should be fine. If there are any questions about suitability, talk it over with your players. You might want to watch what you are saying in public, though Don't want to cause another PR nightmare for roleplaying ("I heard these people talking about whether they were going to take Satan up on his offer for help.")

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Tonguez]

I will try and not make this sound like a sermon so please bear with me: I am a christian and have used Christianity as a game component before and think it can work well however it does require some fundamental changes in how things - and magic in particular - are viewed (things which I beleive Celebrim has addressed effectively) anyway

First a comment on the relative positions of God, Satan and Man

Satan is a fallen angel a created being and as far below God
I'd make him an Outsider (Solar works) and Epic level Scorcerer Rogue /Barbarian with an Epic Intelligence and Strength.

Satan is in fact the enemy of Man (and not God as none is powerful enough to oppose God) and throughout history he attempts to tempt and destroy 'Man'. In Geneis 3.15 (after the Fall from Eden GOD says to the serpent "And I will put enmity between you and the woman And between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head And you shall bruise his heel"

Anyway Satans role is to TEMPT Man and Accuse him of wrongdoing. The reason GOD allows this is unknown but part of Gods plan.

Ultimately however it is the Son of Man (Jesus) who defeats Satan (by his Sacrifice on the Cross)

Anyway the point is Satan vs Man (not Satan vs God - and we know from Job that Satan and God talk and 'work' together - with God as referee)

I would assume that all the named spiritual beings who are not God have Divine Rank 0. These beings grant spells by direct petition, which is to say, they cast the spells not the enactor (which actually is true of god as well) when they notice someone asking them to interveen. It particularly amuses the evil enactors to make the 'spell caster' think that the power derives from themselves or that somehow they have forced the enactor to act this way.

Celebrim your discussion of this topic is wonderful and doctrinally sound (from a Christian perspective anyway) Yes God is all powerful and the ONLY diety and this quoted section is excellent

Anyway I am most impressed by your 'magic system' which is very insightful and a perfect fit with doctrine. Christian (and Jewish and Islamic imho) clerics invoke the Grace of God and it is God who causes a Miracle.
However manifestation of 'Arcane' (and modern pisonic) powers is a deception perpetrated by demons (Divine rank 0).

Your description talks of Satans using his own power to make mortals beleive they are casting spells by their own 'power'
this fits perfectly and also links back to the belief that Witches familiars were manifest demons. Using your system it is in fact the Familiar which casts spells but lets the mortal beleive that they have the power.

I am further impressed by this as it perfectly illustrates the Sin of Vanity (being the beleif that a person has their own 'power' and can do things without God) which was the major cause of Satans fall in the first place (Lucifer beleived he could be 'Like God').

Interestingly, Christianity has never claimed that 'arcane' magic is impossible, and there is even a hint that it is specifically forbid because it is possible - and horribly dangerous. Also, God considers it missing the point, because its about the acquisition of personal power and any personal power other than his own looks pretty cheap to him.

Yes this is absolutely true and magic is mentioned throughout the old testament (in 1 Samuel 28 we even see a case in which a ghost is summoned up) and yes it is extremely dangerous both because it exposes the mortal to 'Spirits' (some of whom are demonic) and because it means relying on power other than the Grace of God

Anyway hope this helps

1GOD works through miracles granted to those who have faith
2Magic is a deception perpetrated by demons (in the form of Familiars?)
3The biggest Sin a Paladin or Cleric can fall into is that of Vanity and beleiving they can do things without relying on the Grace of God.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I would do it this way. God is a greater diety while Satan is a Intermediate Diety.

The big difference though and what keeps the war between them going is this.God has a hands off approach on the world due to his desire for man to have free will. Satan on the other hand wants to control and dominate, so he directly acts against mortals and aids his followers much more often. So while God is more powerful the more common presence of Satan balances the two out.

This would also work to your advantage in a campaign since odds are your characters are generally going to be opposing Satan and his many plots to take over.

 

[Tsyr]

Celebrim, It's really no worse than running "The End"... which is a great game!

 

[Wicht]

Christianity is a monotheistic religion, even if that sometimes makes the Christians uncomfortable.

Celebrim, I enjoyed your post a lot but this one quote puzzled me....

My take on the subject (and this includes ideas borrowed from a Monotheistic predeluge setting of sorts I have mused over in my head) would be that if you are going to have a monotheistic campaign world then the adversary cannot be allpowerful nor a diety. God is God and there is no other, otherwise it is not monotheism. Demons however are active in the world and the head of the demons is Satan. Their purpose is not mere destruction nor do they hope to ever win the fight, they are merely out to corrupt as many as possible and take them all to hell with them.

Neither God nor Satan should ever make personaly appearances in the game, but angelic messengers and demons in physical form should be used to demonstrate the will of each of the leaders.

As far as classes, I would remove the standard cleric, standard druid and the standard wizard. Sorcerers are understood to recieve their spells from demons and I would put some mechanic in place similar to the CoC sanity rules for the use of sorcery (alternitevly have all arcane magic useable by any class but with CoC type consequences.) I would keep the paladin class for crusader types and if I was going to have a 'clerical' class, I would rename them prophets and have their divine spells (renamed prayers or miracles) work similar to the way a sorceror's spells work (limited amount of abilities, flexibility in how and when these abilities are used) and I would severly watch to make sure that these prophets followed their alignement to a "T"

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

How many people here have read the Preacher comic book series? That had a really interesting take on the whole subject of heaven/hell/religion etc etc.

I would point out however, that anyone that is easily offended would probably be offended by that series...it's not Disney, y'know.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

Here's another possibility for you (the Gnostic option):

"God" isn't God at all- and "orthodox" Christians aren't really Christians at all- they're following the false teachings of the Demiurgos, the false god Ialdaboath (alternately IAO, YHWH, Choronzon, Prince of the Archons), who is keeping the world enslaved to his foul will. "Satan" is actually Christ- Christ was the serpent in the garden trying to liberate humanity from their ignorance, and he came again to show them the way and liberate them for good. Unfortunately, the true teachings of Christ were obscured when Ialdaboath sent his servant, "St. Paul", to falsly claim liberation and pervert the church to the Demiurge's end, thus ending Christ's revolution.

Until now.

The Templars have unearthed the ancient teachings of Christ- the true teachings of liberation from sin and death, and are now proceeding to pass them secretly through their order. But what will Rome think? What about the rest of Christiandom?

Magic in this sort of game would be tough to adjudicate. I might give the priests of the church some sort of pseudo-magical or miraculous ability (the "Swashbuckling Adventures" book has rules for this- the Inquisitor class and the Miracle Worker feat are perfectly suited to this). As for the Templars, I'd give them some sort of full-blown arcane and divine magic that they've derived from the teachings. I'd also take a look at the writeups for SA/7th Seas secret organization "Die Kreuzritter", which is heavily based on the Templars. There are also several books that would shed more light on such a scenario- "The Gnostic Gospels", "The Hiram Key", and "The Templars and the Assassins" are gold mines of ideas for D&D campaigns with such themes.