On using minis in D&D - approach of AD&D1 vs. D&D3

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
I've been playing AD&D since 1985 and I've never used minis except, very rarely, just to show marching order and relative position.

The rules use the weird scale, but that's an artifact from the Chainmail roots and one of the many inconsistencies of AD&D. The game plays very fine without any kind of miniatures.

3e, on the other hand, needs miniatures much more. The few times that I've played it without minis it was somewhat problematic. When you have a battlegrid instead, all the tactical options come on their own and combat is much more enjoyable.
 

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Quasqueton

First Post
supp1true1st.jpg
 

Quasqueton said:
OD&D Supplement I (Greyhawk) Image
Right. That's OD&D, which (as written) referred to the Chainmail miniatures rules for movement and combat (although it also provided the familiar "alternative" combat tables to determine the success/failure of attacks). AD&D is not OD&D, and used different rules for movement in combat (i.e. the ones in the 1E DMG).
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
I'm talking about AD&D. I have no experience with OD&D.

Quaqueton, I must say that I find it somewhat hard to believe that you are really stating that miniatures are as necessary in actual play in AD&D as in 3e.

Even if the majority of people played AD&D with miniatures (and this far from proven), the minis had a much more ancillary role than they have now.
 

I didn't play with minis during my AD&D and B/X D&D days, though even then I recognized that the rules were designed to work well with minis (illustrations in the BD&D rulebook showing minis, ranges in inches, diagrams in the 1E DMG). Mostly that was because as a youth it was all I could do to afford books, let alone miniatures. We played lots of wargames with cardboard counters, but for some reason never ported them to D&D. Wish we had, though -- I remember a lot of arguments in combats that would have easily been solved by minis. We did eventually start to use the "marks on paper" method, though.

Having picked up using minis with D&D in 3E, though, I'd never go back willingly. The visual aspect with the tactical options it opens up are just wonderful. I don't think any edition of D&D requires minis to function, but now I enjoy the game more with some sort of tactical marker.
 

cildarith

Explorer
Neither I nor the scores of people I played OAD&D with ever used miniatures to play the game. Sure, they were given brief and passing mention in the DMG, but they were not commonly used as far as I can tell. We were kids, and as mentioned above, had enough trouble scraping together enough allowance money to buy the rulebooks, and an occasional module or issue of Dragon magazine. In addition, I don't recall miniatures being widely available at the bookstores were we made the majority of our purchases.

Quas, your experience with 1E may have been different than ours, but I strongly suspect in this case that you will find yourself in the minority.
 

Doug Sundseth

First Post
Pretty nearly every group that I played OD&D/AD&D with used miniatures. (I still have some of those miniatures to remind me that my painting has progressed quite a bit in the last 30 years.)

That out of the way, the plural of "anecdote" isn't "data". Different groups, both then and now, had/have very different expectations.
 


SuStel

First Post
Quasqueton said:
See, I'd say it was more than just "compatible with". The ranges and movement rates were all given in table-top scale. (This is kind of ironic considering how D&D3 assumes the use of minis and 1" = 5' table grids but gives all ranges and speeds in feet instead of always only in squares.)

This tells me that you don't really understand miniature wargames and their relationship to role-playing games.

In miniature wargaming, scales are very fluid. They change depending on how many men each figure represents, how big the figures are, and how much playing area you have. If you have 30 figures of 25mm size and you want to represent an army of 2,400 men, that's 80 men per figure. If these men are arranged in a typical set of three ranks, that's about 27 men per rank per figure. If the figure's base is one inch wide (a typical amount), that means there are 27 men filling up one inch of ground scale. Historically, a soldier requires about three feet of horizontal space, so that makes our ground scale 1"=80'. Note that figure scale is unrelated to this — if measured by ground scale, a single figure in this army would be taller than a house!

If you have a different number of figures, men, room, or figure (base) size, these numbers will be different. You'll always be left with two things, though: a figure-to-men ratio and a ground scale. Notice that miniatures wargaming does not use a grid as a measurement tool.

For a good explanation of wargaming, see Beginners' Guide to Wargaming by Bruce Quarrie.

In Chainmail, which assumes you have some wargaming experience, you are given some standard measurements around which the rules are based. If you're using 30mm figures, the figure-to-man ratio is 1:20 and the ground scale is 1"=10 yards. If you use smaller figures, they tell you to change to a 1:10 ratio. Naturally, the circumstances of your playing field and available figures may change these numbers.

Because Chainmail was written for a standard set of scales, and because D&D derives directly from the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail, D&D inherited Chainmail's measurement system. After all, thought Gary, D&D will be played primarily by wargamers, so they'll know what all this means. And if they want to play out some battles as a wargame, I'll give 'em the scale measurements.

As we all know, the real audience for D&D turned out to be non-wargamers. Gary soon realized this; The Strategic Review has, early on, a D&D FAQ geared toward non-wargamers. But the wargaming background was already there, and Gary and friends were wargamers themselves, and that's how they thought of the game. You'll note that Gary has often commented that he and his group rarely used miniature figures during D&D games. At most they were there for show.

Since Gary wrote the AD&D text, the wargaming scales stayed. Notice that all editions of D&D that Gary didn't write himself drop most of the wargaming scales. (Only the turn survived.) AD&D suggests that if miniatures are used, 25mm figures be used with a ground scale of 3"=10' in dungeons. It doesn't talk about using figures outdoors — probably because this would just lead us back to Chainmail, except with a 1:1 ratio.

D&D and AD&D assumed that players were not using miniature figures, but since its systems were derived from a wargame, that's how they were measured. d20 does not derive directly from a wargame — it is loosely based on earlier editions of AD&D, and adds dedicated 1:1 ratio rules to handle combat, putting much weight on their use.
 

king_ghidorah

First Post
cildarith said:
Neither I nor the scores of people I played OAD&D with ever used miniatures to play the game. Sure, they were given brief and passing mention in the DMG, but they were not commonly used as far as I can tell. We were kids, and as mentioned above, had enough trouble scraping together enough allowance money to buy the rulebooks, and an occasional module or issue of Dragon magazine. In addition, I don't recall miniatures being widely available at the bookstores were we made the majority of our purchases.

Quas, your experience with 1E may have been different than ours, but I strongly suspect in this case that you will find yourself in the minority.

I'm with Quas-- all the groups I played AD&D with in my teens used minis. Our collection was tiny and supplemented with toys and whatnot, but we used minis.

And while some of our purchases came from bookstores and toy stores (and I think my mom bought me some boxed minis from a toy store), we also bought many supplies at the local game shop -- Military Emporium in El Cajon, CA-- a store specialized in wargames, which is long defunct.
 

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