On using minis in D&D - approach of AD&D1 vs. D&D3

[Raven Crowking]

edit: As a side note, most of these threads remind me a lot of the movie Life of Brian.

The entire Interweb is just one long, drawn out, Monty Python skit.

 

[francisca]

I've play 1e and B/X both ways, with and without minis. Personally, I prefer to play the older editions without minis and with group initiative, as it simply speeds the game along. I'm flexible, though - I can count hexes and optimize movement with the best of them as well. As long as I'm having fun, I don't really care.

I've never played 3.x without minis, however. While I generally dislike the square counting and "corner to corner" aspects, I can't imagine trying to adjudicate 3.5 without a grid, unless you toss out a lot stuff. Most 3e players don't care for that.

 

[francisca]

The entire Interweb is just one long, drawn out, Monty Python skit.

And now, the Internet has lost it's Sense of Wonder. (TM)

 

[RFisher]

For what it's worth, my experience:

I got my first boxes of miniatures about the same time I got my Basic Set. Tried to use them a bit for those first few attempts at trying to figure out how to play the game.

By the time I was in a regular group & playing Traveller & AD&D, we never used minis. OK, maybe once. I didn't use minis until I started playing Gurps.

With 3e, I've played both with & without minis. I actually prefer without even under 3e.

I think a telling statement by Mike Mornard was that Gygax never used minis (with D&D) & Arneson always did. Quote whatever you want, but I think the game has always--even with 3e--been intended to be played either way whether the books were honest about it or not.

 

[SavageRobby]

These threads are argumentative because everything is subject to interpretation. There are parts that explicity imply the use of minis, and in the very same book parts that tell you they are optional. I think the books themselves lead to this continuous arguement.

You know, as much as I love 1e and don't particularly like 3x, I gotta give it to Wizards that they certainly managed to clean out the pile of discrepancies that resided in the earlier rulebooks. If nothing else, 3x is a much more internally consistent ruleset, compared to 1e.

(Of course, I think part of the fun of 1e is mixing and matching rules, but that is another discussion entirely.)



My own experience with miniatures was virtually nil, until I started playing 3x. I think back in the 80s I had a box or two of minis, but we never once used them in a game. We did have a lot of "I said I moved over there" and "I thought the orcs were over here" kind of discussions.

With 3x (and along with the advent of cheap, home color printing, PDF technology and other non-RPG innovations that made terrain/battlemaps cheaper and more accessible), I started using minis. I remember being ecstatic at finding out about DDMs, after buying lots of Reaper figures and discovering I had neither the aptitude nor patience (nor temperament) to paint a slew of minis. I've exported the use of minis and terrain into nearly all of my games now, regardless of system. However, I'm not as much a slave to the grid as I was in my early 3x days, and terrain is more of a "general" representation of the environment than an exact representation.

 

[SuStel]

OD&D: A development of miniatures rules. Very close relationship, both because of terminolgy and because the tactical rules assume the use of Chainmail, by default (although Chainmail is not an absolute requirement).

I agree with you up to your mention of tactical rules. The Chainmail rules for combat only require miniatures insomuch as you need to know whether your figure's base is touching another's (and you are thus in melee). If you assume two D&D parties are "touching," then miniatures are irrelevant even if you're using Chainmail to work out the combat. You roll on the right tables and deduct hits — but you don't need to know anything more detailed than distance, and that doesn't require miniatures.

Chainmail does not have detailed rules for facing rules, attacks of opportunity, and the like that are based on knowing the exact position of each combatant. This is why Gygax et. al. didn't bother with miniatures for D&D.

 

[IanB]

All of my experiences with minis-free play have been uniformly awful. The vast majority of games I've played, since 1982, have at least used some sort of markers and map. In my experience playing without such things, the game devolves into too much argument about whether people can do something or not. There was a high correspondence, also, between 'no map' games and totally arbitrary DMs.

In any case, how anyone can stand to play without an easy way of seeing exactly who got hit by the dragon's fire breath, I will never understand.

 

[TavernBrawler]

The entire Interweb is just one long, drawn out, Monty Python skit.

Amen!

To add my own beginning into the mix, I started with a BECMI/1E hybrid with no miniatures. After experiencing D&D with miniatures, and a lengthy stint playing Battletech, I was converted to loving my minis and enjoying their use in gaming.

 

[MerricB]

You (yes you), fall into one of two camps:

The group that primarily used miniatures with D&D, or
The group that primarily didn't use miniatures with D&D.

(You, the person who played with both kinds of group... you don't count. Go away! )

More seriously, regardless of what the books said or implied, it's my observation that players get introduced to one way of playing D&D - with or without minis - and generally stick with that. I'm in the no-minis school... even though I do use them from time to time these days, there are lots of times I don't think it worth it.

Cheers!

 

[rgard]

after buying lots of Reaper figures and discovering I had neither the aptitude nor patience (nor temperament) to paint a slew of minis.

Hi Robby, one thing that really helped me and others was attending a mini painting clinic/class. When I first opened my game store I had two locals volunteer to do minis painting classes at the store (I had a painting table/area in the back of the store beyond the gaming tables and provided GW paints for folks to paint their own in the store.) The classes lasted about 90 minutes and at the end of it, everybody who attended could knock out a really great looking mini. Without going into details, paint dips, inks and dry brushing are really easy ways to get the job done.

For me, once I mastered those techniques, the lack of patience part went bye byes.

I've heard of some GW shops doing painting clinics or you could ask your FLGS or LGS store if they would consider setting something up like that.

Thanks,
Rich