D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[Ashrym]

@tetrasodium

It does not matter which level a person compares. A wizard will definitely have access to more spells than the sorcerer. That's not disputable.

The "best spells" is a bit misleading because spell prep allows for using those situational spells that a sorcerer would not be likely to learn. If you want a stand out spell then rope trick comes to mind. Alarm, Tasha's, Find Familiar, and Leomund's Tiny Hut are examples of good spells sorcerers cannot take as well.

Having said that, people do have their own ideas on what the "best spells" are and they do take them. Then the wizards take a few more. ;-)

Spells are also ranked by spell level to determine rough power levels for each spell at a given level. It's not that one spell is meant to be more powerful than another so much as used at a different time than another. That means the wizard's larger tool box can come into play in more scenarios for more situational advantages.

@Todd Roybark

Players are looking for improvements for the sorcerer in order to create variety in the build options and thematics. It's not to add power. Wizards do not need that because they started with a lot of school based subclasses and are clearly tied to books and lore. There's no need to give wizards something just because Sorcerers get something in an aspect of play that's simply catching up.

I can make a sorcerer that adventures just fine. Metamagic creates that level of satisfaction and in this edition it's definitely a sorcerer trait. Wanting it to be a wizard trait because bonus feats built that perception in the past is actually an appeal to tradition. That perception neither proves nor disproves anything. It's needed now because sorcerers were included in this system (presumably based on a long Next playtest and feed back) and needed a mechanic worth applying to the class.

Changes to sorcerers are more about building on the identity than actually competition with wizards even though that's often something brought up in arguments as justification. That's why sorcerer unique spells get mentioned or more ways to use sorcery points even though they are still based on competition for the same limited resources.

 

[tetrasodium]

@tetrasodium

Spells are also ranked by spell level to determine rough power levels for each spell at a given level. It's not that one spell is meant to be more powerful than another so much as used at a different time than another. That means the wizard's larger tool box can come into play in more scenarios for more situational advantages.

No, it's exactly the opposite for some spells that are created by wotc in a way that is deliberately overpowered for their level, conveniently sorcerer's share them with wizard or people trumpeting the mere presence of wizard specific spells would have immediately rattled them off on one of the many times they were asked to list top shelf wizard only spells...

For example...

Unbalanced on Purpose
Fireball is a carrot urging players to to play D&D in a certain archetypal way. And if that makes it unbalanced, so be it. Faced with this knowledge, DMs like me who relish in tinkering with the game have a few choices.

If the sorcerer is not losing out on these spells with their smaller spell list & the wizard is not gaining any meaningful options, do they counterbalance the class specific tools granted to sorcerer given that using those tools would often result in them being mechanically disadvantaged by choosing to play in a way wotc tried to idiscourage? Simply saying that more spells exist does not answer the question or complete an argument that they counterbalance the class specific stuff that does grant significant mechanical benefits in play

You claimed that, objectively, the Sorcerer had most of the Wizard's spells. The reverse is objectively true, the Wizard has virtually all the Sorcerer's spells, and many more, besides.
As for your opinion that 5e spell-casting is a solved game, with only a handful of spells that mean anything, I refuse to accept or engage with it.

Thaat's quite the stretch, and an absurd one at that. Ritual spells are unfinished & you quit frothing about them so presumably have noticed that dead end of a strawman. The "many more" spells amount to a handful of spells across each of the nine levels of spells with many many of them spread through levels that statistically are rarely ever actually played at tables. You are once again resorting to what amounts to "prove me wrong" rather than addressing the problems with your argument... but hey, if your argument is so weak that you can't by doing things like listing the spells you think are top shelf among those 93 we weigh if the distribution of top self spells is properly arranged across levels actually seen at the table or if the apparent unfinished state of ritual spells is proper to to a focus shift elsewhere to balance out all the class features sorcerer's bring to the table vrs the spells that wizards have... it's ok to admit your argument is an empty strawman that can't support your claim that those spells alone are sufficient.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Thaat's quite the stretch, and an absurd one at that.

What, that 93 is objectively greater than 7, and that categorically disproves your 'objective' assertion that the Sorcerer had most of the Wizard's spells?
Or not accepting the unsupported assertion that the only spells that really matter in D&D are fewer in number than a mid-level Sorcerer's known spells?

Because the only thing absurd about them is the need to even spell them out.

The "many more" spells amount to a handful of spells across each of the nine levels of spells

A sorcerer only knows a handful - a pretty small handful - of each of the 9 levels of spells. The wizard prepares more, knows even more automatically, and can pick up even more beyond that.

You are once again resorting to what amounts to "prove me wrong" rather than addressing the problems with your argument...

What problem? Confronted with the fact that the wizard virtually subsumes the Sorcerer's spell list, while having more besides (93 v 7) you object that at more commonly played levels it's only 35 v 5 - that's not exactly a lot better for the sorcerer, it's still the wizard getting virtually all the Sorcerer's spells and more besides.

Then you resort to claiming the 5e spell lists are so badly balanced that only a handful of (unnamed) 'top shelf' spells matter - but, if that's the case, the game is 'solved,' and there's about as much point to playing it as tic tac toe, so yeah, I discount that assertion out of hand (not because I'm confident it's wrong, just that there's no point to discussion in the case in which it's right).

but hey, if your argument is so weak that you can't by doing things like listing the spells you think are top shelf among those 93

The "Top Shelf" is your thing. If the designers put two spell at the same level, they're asserting that, overall, they're equivalent in value in some way. Prove them wrong, if you want to show that the game is garbage, otherwise, give up that line of attack.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Both the Sorcerer and Wizard suffer from a dearth of Bonus action options. I would love to see Cantrips like Bonus action to add + 1 to save DC for next Illusion etc.

I personally feel the need for ‘ Sorcerer only spells’ is unwarranted, as it leads people to lust.
How many builds are created all about trying to acquire a particular spell and then multiclassing to try to find a way to push the power output beyond the norm.

See Booming Blade, Spiritual Guardians, Shadow Blade etc.

Sorc only spells will just exacerbate this trend. While some groups don’t mind this style of play, (myself included), it is also amply evident from threads on this board, that many do.

Unique Sorcerer powers fueled off Sorcery Points is my preferred method. So, an emphatic yes to unique Sorc Powers, but do not make them spells.

People will still try to optimize, but Sorcery Point gain is at a slow rate, and I think in some ways will inhibit multiclassing as the multi-class spell casting rules will not impact Sorcery Points.

I could see that, but I feel like there is too much pressure on sorcery points right now, building new abilities that will draw upon that pool might be too much.

But I can see the idea that people will instead want the spells sorcerers have if we give them decent options.

I agree on the bonus action needs, but the sorcerer/wiz only spell list need is more because pretty much all of what used to make up the wizard's toolbox other than the spells almost entirely shared with sorcerer was taken away & given exclusively to sorcerer or warlock while something that used to be a core component of the base class was turned into a prc/archtype for wizard Sorcerer has a bunch of interesting & flavorful stuff from the getgo that only continues to accumulate. Other than the largely copied spell list wizards don't really start getting similar selections of toys as an early/mid level sorcerer or wizard s until mid-very late game when any normal game is going into wrap up or just ending.

the wizard needs a notable core class toolbox or the wizard & sorcerer need to feel viscerally different in play when it matters at the table beyond a couple niche edge cases like tiny hut & detect magic that might be nice sometimes but don't in any way amount to a full fledged role within the party.

So, built a wizard with those unique spells a while back. You either missed it or ignored it.

And, I'm not sure why you keep insisting that Warlocks and Sorcerers stole everything from the wizard. Were metamagic feats exclusive to wizards back in the day? I thought any spellcaster could take them. In fact, other than scribing scrolls (which anyone in 5e can do) what exactly did Wizards get that sorcerer's stole from them? You keep saying it, but you don't give us any evidence to support it, just repeating yourself like that in itself is evidence.

Edit: Seems that was addressed and you responded here

Thanks for asking, when talking about changes from past editions it can be tough to know how much of those editions that people new or remember unless they ask rather than dismissing it but going into too much detail to cover all that is an endless rabbit hole.

Wizards used to have bonus on top of the feats everyone got at 1,3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 like how 5e fighters still have bonus feats. in 5e wizards do not have bonus feats & that makes sense because You can see a very extensive list of those feats here that looks like it pulls from many of the various 3.5 books. Other classes could take them in place of regular feats but wizards got them from bonus feats plus had the ability to take them regularly like everyone else. If you look at that list, both metamagics & a gigantic portion of the warlock invocations were on it or they were simply left out of the game entirely. It's one thing to say "well those feats aren't in the game anymore", but you still have the fact that 5e wizards don't have bonus feats like 5efighters & the fact that so many of them are still found as either metamagic or warlock invocations in the 5e book

On top of not having wizard bonus feats & having a base core class feature turned into the justification for nearly all of the. Find familiar went from being a wizard/sorcerer/some PrCs class feature to being a spell so every other class could take it with magic adept if that wizard class feature was not on their spell list already.
View attachment 118335
By comparison here is the equivalent sorcerer table
View attachment 118338

So.... "Everyone" stole Familiars and Wizard's aren't getting extra feats, which many used to get abilities that are now invocations and metamagic.

But, those feats were never exclusive, wizard's just had more feats to use, so they got to take the magic feats everyone wanted more...

So... Sorcerers "stole" the feature that everyone had but wizard's got to use more because wizards were more special than everyone else? That is a rather poor argument for them "Stealing" from wizards when it seems wizards just stopped getting a buff above what every other caster had.

You are misinterpreting the fact that it's relevant that sorcerer and warlock design cannibalized wizard for their 5e versions, just copied nearly all of what they didn't take exclusively, and wotc filled in what remains with largely empty ribbons I was directly asked to explain "what was a solely wizard only tool in its toolbox that the sorcerer stole" and did so.

as to your not focus on exact mechanics point, I would be all for it if there were meaningful (or actual) mechanics in the wizard class that filled the wizard's empty gap to set it apart from the classes that copy virtually all of the wizard's spell list including the must have critical spells plus bring class features of their own to the table set with the top shelf spells from the wizard's spell list. There are no mechanics to focus on.. because... well.. sorcerer & warlock stole the ones not dropped from the game.

Except that you didn't tell us "what was solely a wizard only tool" you told us that wizards used to get four more feats than other spellcasters, and so they were able to take more of the tools that everyone could use. Wizard's have lost nothing that was exclusively theirs

The wizard arcane toolbox was indeed "practically nonexistant" because the toolbox was those bonus feats and differences to how the int mod applied to various things. In short it was extensive. they took a portion of the core class that applied at level 1 rather than a feat grouping or PrC & made it into the vast majority of wizard archtypes then cut the rest including some of that core class stuff from the game

Wait, so now we are adding core mechanics of how ability scores worked to the things that the sorcerer stole from the Wizard? Man, I didn't realize that going from skill ranks to proficiency was because of the sorcerer. I thought that was a fundamental change in the game state, not something defined by a single class. Silly me.

There is no debate on the objective fact that nearly all of the wizard's spell list is duplicated on the sorcerer list. Rather than getting lost on an endless subjective debate over if a wizard should be a glass cannon, battlefield control, batman, etc & to what degrees... How about instead can you compile a list of top shelf spells in the much smaller handful of wizard specific spells not shared by sorcerer in the section of the spell list copied to sorcerer? There are only a handful of wizard spells each level that are not copied to the sorcerer list, it should be easy for some of the folks who keep pointing at the larger spell list to name the top shelf spells unique to wizards, oddly there doesn't seem to be much interest in doing so even though I've asked quite a few times in the thread

See, those hand-me downs my parents force my brother to wear prove he stole from my closet. Just like back in 3.5 when he didn't even get his own closet and they just told him he could wear my clothes if he wanted to wear anything.

Yes, Sorcerers and Wizards share spells. That isn't the sorcerer stealing from the wizard. That is the sorcerer being told to act like a wizard, whether they want to or not.

if you deliberately ignore large parts of it sure. the spell list is the same on almost every meaningful level. The core class features are out to lunch & classes with what is largely the same spell list bring significant class specific toys to the table on top of their archtype specific ones. Wizards have a spellbook, a half finished ritual soellbook, and mostly late game archtype features to set them apart from classes with most of the same spells.



"Many" is a poor choice of words in this case because it's an imprecise undefined number used in a subjective context. every bonus feat it had in 3.5? probably not, some of the later ones are archtype features. one or two in the core class?... yea... definitely so. Somewhere in between like fighters ?... Yea strong maybe or even possibly depending on if wotc ever plans to finish fleshing out ritual spells beyond their notes on a cocktail napkin made during lunch status & to what extent/direction.

as to your other question...
There is no debate on the objective fact that nearly all of the wizard's spell list is duplicated on the sorcerer list. Rather than getting lost on an endless subjective debate over if a wizard should be a glass cannon, battlefield control, batman, etc & to what degrees... How about instead can you compile a list of top shelf spells in the much smaller handful of wizard specific spells not shared by sorcerer in the section of the spell list copied to sorcerer? There are only a handful of wizard spells each level that are not copied to the sorcerer list, it should be easy for some of the folks who keep pointing at the larger spell list to name the top shelf spells unique to wizards, oddly there doesn't seem to be much interest in doing so even though I've asked quite a few times in the thread

Since you love talking about 3.5 and how terrible it is for the Wizards to lose all their stuff, let us take a moment to look at the 3.5 sorcerer. Just for giggles.

According to your own picture you posted (it's in one of the sections I quoted from you) they recieved no class features except for Finding Familiars. Which wizards also got, and has now become a spell that (in your own words) "anyone can take with a feat).

The 3.5 Sorcerer spell list? It didn't exist, they just used the Wizard spell list. It wasn't even listed seperately, it was the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

The extra weapons and armor they recieved? Gone. They get the exact same armor and weapons as a wizard does now.

Their HD being larger (I believe that was true for 3.5)? Gone.

And, spontaneous casting. The ability to not lock a spell into a specific slot. You could simply cast magic missile with any slot instead of saying that you would cast two of them for this day. Given to every caster in the entire game. Including the wizard.


But please, let us continue to discuss ad nauseam all the things that wizards lost to the sorcerer. I mean, the sorcerer now has a seperate spell list, and they got the metamagic. Lost everything unique they ever had in 3.5, gained some other things to compensate.

No, it's exactly the opposite for some spells that are created by wotc in a way that is deliberately overpowered for their level, conveniently sorcerer's share them with wizard or people trumpeting the mere presence of wizard specific spells would have immediately rattled them off on one of the many times they were asked to list top shelf wizard only spells...

For example...

Didn't I do something like this way back when, and you completely ignored it?

Actually the red is an easy one, to a degree, even without looking at sublcasses I see Wizards have sole access to a lot of spells involving force constructs. Tenser's Disc, Magic Weapon, Tiny Hut, Resilient Sphere, Wall of Force, Bigby's hand, you can add dimensional magics too with Rope Trick, Mordenkainen's Mansion, Demiplane, Planar Binding.

Of course, you could also add in Xanathar's spells and talk about Catapult, Snare, Earthbind, Steel Wind Strike, Scatter, Tenser's Transformation, Invulnerability.

So, a wizard based around the manipulation of space and energy is decently easy to build with almost all wizard exclusive spells.

Looks like I did. So, we have successfully named some "top tier" spells that the sorcerer cannot cast. We did it like, 100 posts ago, but hey, sometimes you miss things.

So. Point made, now what do you say?

Thaat's quite the stretch, and an absurd one at that. Ritual spells are unfinished

Another point that I don't think you've ever actually, like, proven or supported in any way. How are Ritual spells "unfinished"?

 

[Undrave]

If the sorcerer is not losing out on these spells with their smaller spell list & the wizard is not gaining any meaningful options, do they counterbalance the class specific tools granted to sorcerer given that using those tools would often result in them being mechanically disadvantaged by choosing to play in a way wotc tried to idiscourage? Simply saying that more spells exist does not answer the question or complete an argument that they counterbalance the class specific stuff that does grant significant mechanical benefits in play

Fireball is a combat spell, EVERYBODY is good at combat in 5e. Doesn't really prove much.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Another point that I don't think you've ever actually, like, proven or supported in any way. How are Ritual spells "unfinished"?

There really aren't a whole lot of them. Enough that a known caster has to make some painful choices about saving slots by taking a ritual, but not so much that the wizard's options are nigh-infinite because his spellbook is packed with vast numbers of rituals (there were vast numbers of rituals, in 4e, for contrast - highly situational, & expensive to cast, but tons of 'em).
The potential of unlimited access to free rituals is greater than the reality of it, but the reality, even in just the PH, is still pretty nice.

 

[Minigiant]

Uhh no... they stat him as a wizard because he is and I can objective prove it, sorcerer in dresdenverse is something else that coincidentally is much closer to the sorcerer with their lack of wizardly training.

Sorcerer...

Spoiler

View attachment 118361

Spoiler: Your a wizard Harry.

View attachment 118362

Again.

Harry Dresden is a multiclassed wizard and sorcerer. ALL wizards in the dresdenverse are sorcerer's.

Sorcery is the first magic you learn as it is controlling your personal energy. You can learn that with no training.

Wizards are offended by the term because they know more than sorcery. They are also know Thaumaturgy and Alchemy when is wizard and artificer respectfully. Thaumaturgy and alchemy requires a teacher and years of tough brutal training.

 

[tetrasodium]

There really aren't a whole lot of them. Enough that a known caster has to make some painful choices about saving slots by taking a ritual, but not so much that the wizard's options are nigh-infinite because his spellbook is packed with vast numbers of rituals (there were vast numbers of rituals, in 4e, for contrast - highly situational, & expensive to cast, but tons of 'em).

They also pretty much stop at third, there are zero ritual spells of levels 4,7,8, & 9 with the remaining 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, & 6th level rituals being too niche & scattered to build much of a concept around other than "like a sorcerer but occasionally casts detect magic & tiny hut". Nobody is remarking about how the wizard's earlier cast/residual force multiplying rituals really saved Alice's bacon or that it's great how they let Bob wtfpn the bbeg so good or anything.

.

Fireball is a combat spell, EVERYBODY is good at combat in 5e. Doesn't really prove much.

It proves that the "more spells!!"/"93!!" argument is lacking enough substance to support the weight being attached to it. It does that by proving that there are spells that are deliberately overtuned outside the range of that spell's level & it proves it with an official admission. As a result of that proof, "bigger spell list" as opposed to a slightly smaller list along with lots of early mid & late class features and archtype features with a more valuable casting stat needs more depth than just "more spells" even if there are 93 of them in order for the "more spells" point to hold the weight people were trying to give it when they made it.

I pointed out a problem that hurt the argument's merit & asked for supporting details that could lend it the merit they were attaching to it, was doubted that it existed at all, provided proof of my doubt being intentional choice from wotc, and still rather than supporting their own weak argument watching the people who made it backpedal into "it doesn't matter."

@Minigiant the dresdenverse is a deep hole of lore upon lore , I just thought it was a silly tangent & tried to end it

 

[Chaosmancer]

There really aren't a whole lot of them. Enough that a known caster has to make some painful choices about saving slots by taking a ritual, but not so much that the wizard's options are nigh-infinite because his spellbook is packed with vast numbers of rituals (there were vast numbers of rituals, in 4e, for contrast - highly situational, & expensive to cast, but tons of 'em).
The potential of unlimited access to free rituals is greater than the reality of it, but the reality, even in just the PH, is still pretty nice.

So, you think it is more of a point that there aren't ,ore rituals rather than the mechanic somehow being incomplete?

I mean, adding more ritual spells is going to happen. We got a few more with just Xanathar's spells being added. As we get more spells, there will be more rituals as well.

I also think that if we are at a point where there are enough rituals to make it a hard decision, but not enough to make the wizard have "nigh infinite options" I think we are in a good space. Enough that they are meaningful to take, not enough that they offer a pathway to obviating the need for anything else. That sounds close to balanced, not incomplete.

Again.

Harry Dresden is a multiclassed wizard and sorcerer. ALL wizards in the dresdenverse are sorcerer's.

Sorcery is the first magic you learn as it is controlling your personal energy. You can learn that with no training.

Wizards are offended by the term because they know more than sorcery. They are also know Thaumaturgy and Alchemy when is wizard and artificer respectfully. Thaumaturgy and alchemy requires a teacher and years of tough brutal training.

Also, as a fan of the Dresden Files, I would like to throw something out there.

Jim Butcher wasn't writing DnD fan fiction when he wrote the Dresden Files. So, I think it should be fairly obvious that the Dresden Files will not perfectly emulate DnD style magic. They are two entirely different systems that just happen to share titles.

Just like Harry Potter's magic which rely's on no personal energy and allows the casting of anything, including death curses, just by knowing the right words and having a wand, is a third separate system that has nothing to do with DnD magic.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, you think it is more of a point that there aren't more rituals rather than the mechanic somehow being incomplete?

That's the only point or meaning I can take from it, and Na4 did 'like' it.

I mean, adding more ritual spells is going to happen. We got a few more with just Xanathar's spells being added. As we get more spells, there will be more rituals as well.

Yep.

Also, as a fan of the Dresden Files, I would like to throw something out there.
Jim Butcher wasn't writing DnD fan fiction when he wrote the Dresden Files.

IIRC, he admits to an influence. Heck, the main character plays D&D - and complains about it's magic system!

So, I think it should be fairly obvious that the Dresden Files will not perfectly emulate DnD style magic. They are two entirely different systems that just happen to share titles.

TBF, genre magic is generally nothing at all like D&D magic, but more like that of the Sorcerer class (any of the incarnations, really), than the classic magic-user/wizard.