D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[MoonSong]

Sorcerers probably should have had a more modular spell list. A basic spell list every Sorcerer gets access too, and then a pile of thematic spells based on each subclass. More extensive than the Domain spells of the cleric. You'd get to pick a certain number of spells from each list instead of an over all amount.

I agree. Something closer to spheres in 2e would be great.

 

[tetrasodium]

Sorcerer has a niche. The issue is that many prominent D&D fans don't want it in the game at all. So many fans push it to be weak or off-image.

I disagree on it having a niche. Virtually identical spell list as wizard including the same "right spell" choices but with charisma, extra proficiencies, and no spellbook, is hardly a niche. By saying that it needs a niche I mean the that it needs a niche of its own that does not so heavily consume the wizard's niche on the venn diagram

 

[HarbingerX]

As an aside, is there anyone who can talk to their experience playing a sorcerer? Especially interesting if you played in a party that also had a wizard...

 

[Undrave]

As an aside, anyone who fights to keep the Sorcerer separated from the Wizard... I hope you understand the feeling folks who want more mundane classes get when they just get told "Just make it a Fighter"

If not every caster should be folded into the Wizard, then not every pure Martial shouldn't be a Fighter and vis-versa...

 

[Minigiant]

Less utility is part of the problem of sorcerers being subpar. There's lots of potential for sorcerers and themes. How about a fabric witch? Manipulate cloth, materialize clothing and disguises, create garments with special properties, sew a dress faster... Or a dimensional witch sense and vibrate with the cosmos, astral projection commune with otherworldy entities, bend space... The only limits currently are the spell list -and lack of a generic "do your own theme" subclass.(ok maybe limited spells known too). Sorcerers should be expected to pick a theme and niche instead of just being blasters.

I'd still remove fireball though.

I wish the designers made a few generic lists to pull cleric domains, druid circles, warlock pacts, and sorcerer bloodlines from.

Speaking of that, do you remember who first designed the sorcerer? I kinda remember it was someone's homebrew that got included to justify the phb having so many pages of spells, but can't find anything concrete.

I don't remember who. All I remember was the hostility and my old DMs complaining.

 

[prabe]

As an aside, is there anyone who can talk to their experience playing a sorcerer? Especially interesting if you played in a party that also had a wizard...

I have played a sorcerer in the past, and I tended to play him as a charming idiot savant. I play in a large-ish party that has a sorcerer and a wizard, and they have some overlap in approach, but they've chosen different spells.

That said, I don't have a problem with the classes that exist existing. I can see wanting to tweak them around the edges (or further in) but to me there's room for all.

 

[SkidAce]

Yeah, I think the Sorcerer should have been way more different in terms of spell list. Lots of blasty stuff, less utility compared to the Wizard and vice-versa. Wizards get to keep their iconic Fireball and Magic Missile, but not a lot of single target stuff, for exemple.

That would make my enchantment sorcerer sad.

 

[Ratskinner]

Must confess I'm not familiar with Al-Quadim at all. In 2e I just found the Mage so frustrating I stopped looking for options.

The Sha'ir was like a slow, versatile Warlock. He had a little gen familiar that would fetch him spells (even clerical spells) from somewhere out there in the multiverse. But it took some amount of time. I can't recall if he was a little thief-y as well, or if my players were multiclass. He could even break level restrictions, IIRC. There was a lot of little mechanics wrapped into that kit.

 

[CleverNickName]

I've heard of DMs letting their players choose any character classes they want when rolling up 1st level characters, and then removing all classes from the game that weren't chosen by the players. So if nobody rolled up a warlock at 1st level, warlocks didn't (and wouldn't ever) exist in the campaign. From Day 1, the player characters were the only Heroes in the realm, and would be the only ones who would have the power to stand against the Big Bad and save the world.

This lets the players decide how magic is defined, and how it "works" in the campaign. Is it all book-magic, learned from ancient tomes in forgotten libraries? Well, Bob rolled up a wizard, so yes. Was magic stolen from demons and archfey, through dangerous pacts? It is now, because there's a warlock in the party. And so on.

I don't know if it's something I would do, but it's an interesting approach.

 

[Minigiant]

As an aside, anyone who fights to keep the Sorcerer separated from the Wizard... I hope you understand the feeling folks who want more mundane classes get when they just get told "Just make it a Fighter"

If not every caster should be folded into the Wizard, then not every pure Martial shouldn't be a Fighter and vis-versa...

I see them as pairs

Learned Arcana on a Nurtured Magician
Raw Arcana on a Natural Magician
Learned Fighting Styles taught to a Nurtured Warrior
Raw Fighting Styles taught to a Natural Warrior